JAD ABUMRAD: Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT KRULWICH: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab. And today we're talking about ...

ROBERT: Well, we're trying to think about what goes on in the mind of a bad person.

JAD: Yeah.

ROBERT: What makes a bad person so bad that he's different from the rest of us?

JAD: And we didn't really come into any kind of agreement with the Haber thing.

ROBERT: Yeah, I don't think we quite ...

JAD: But, you know, we ended up walking this question around to different people.

JAMES SHAPIRO: You want to talk about bad people in Shakespeare.

JAD: And oddly enough, we came—got a really interesting take on the true nature of badness from this guy.

JAMES SHAPIRO: James Shapiro, professor of English at Columbia University.

JAD: And he said, "To start, you want to know about bad? I'll give you bad."

ROBERT: In Titus Andronicus, there's a character by the name of ...

JAMES SHAPIRO: Aaron the Moor.

JAD: There's a moment in the play when Aaron gets up on stage, looks at the audience and says, "Let me just tell you the kinds of things I've been up to recently."

JAMES SHAPIRO: "Set deadly enmity between two friends, made poor men's cattle break their necks, set fire on barns and haystacks in the night, and bid the owners quench—quench them with their tears. Oft have I digged up dead men from their graves and set them upright at their dear friend's door."

ROBERT: Oh! [laughs]

JAMES SHAPIRO: "Even—even when their sorrows almost were forgot. And on their skins, as on the bark of trees, have with my knife carved in Roman letters, 'Let not your sorrows die, though I am dead.'"

ROBERT: Whoa!

ROBERT: So he's bad.

JAD: Yeah, but see, here's the interesting thing. According to James, he's not the baddest in Shakespeare or in life, because ultimately the play offers up a reason for his nastiness.

JAMES SHAPIRO: The reason why he's telling all this stuff is because he has cut a deal. They will spare his son if he fesses up and tells them what they need to know. So there's a way in which there's a touch, a spark of humanity.

JAD: Just a little glimmer. And he says that's what people wanted. They wanted someone who was really thrillingly bad, but in the end, was redeemed a bit.

ROBERT: Yeah.

JAD: This wasn't just a theater thing.

ROBERT: No, because if you couldn't afford a ticket for a play, you'd seen all the plays, in the 1500s you could always go to a public hanging.

JAD: And you'd go ...

ROBERT: For much the same reasons.

JAMES SHAPIRO: In those days, if you're a convicted male felon, you are, you know, strung up but you're not allowed to hang until you die. You're cut down before then.

JAD: Warning. This next part's a little graphic.

JAMES SHAPIRO: Then the executioner castrates you, cuts you open and takes out your internal organs, and then separates your head, which is put on a post.

ROBERT: But even with all that gore and horribleness, there was often a moment that people waited for. And in a way we wait for it still, even now.

JAMES SHAPIRO: We want what Elizabethans got at the scaffold, which was a confession. Before the guy is cut to shreds, he's allowed to confess. You know, "I heartily, you know, regret the fact that I killed a young maiden or defamed the king." Whatever it is. The expectation is somebody is made to make his peace with his maker before he dies. That's what you do.

JAD: And that's what Shakespeare did in all his plays. He would give all his baddies at least one moment where they could be understood.

ROBERT: Except this one time.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: So will I turn her virtue into pitch.]

ROBERT: Iago. He is a soldier. He works for a general. The general's name is Othello. They're supposedly chums, but General Othello has no idea that Iago ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: I hate ...]

ROBERT: ... hates him.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: ... the Moor!]

JAD: So he plans to destroy Othello. Now we don't exactly know why. There are hints at reasons. Like, maybe he thinks Othello is sleeping with his wife. We're not sure. But the weird thing is that he decides not just to take down Othello, but everybody.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: I know what he did.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: What? What?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: Lie.]

ROBERT: He stirs up hatred between friends, between lovers. He even schemes against his own wife.

JAMES SHAPIRO: This is just somebody who's performing brain surgery without anesthesia on other people. He's a master plotter.

ROBERT: And as for why?

JAMES SHAPIRO: Maybe Othello was sleeping with Amelia.

JAD: But as the play goes on, you begin to think that maybe that's just another lie.

ROBERT: Eventually, Iago convinces Othello that his wife has been disloyal—which she hasn't. And then Othello goes and kills his own wife, smothering her with a pillow.

JAMES SHAPIRO: This is just a tsunami of evil that passes through the play.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: Desdemona's dead! Desdemona's dead!]

JAD: And at the very end of the play when everyone finds out what Iago's done, Othello asks him, "Why? Why did you do this?" And Iago?

JAMES SHAPIRO: He refuses what we fully expect and what everybody on stage at that moment fully expects from him. You know, what does he say? "Demand me nothing. What you know ..."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Othello: You know.]

JAMES SHAPIRO: "From this time forth, I never will speak word." I'm not saying a word. I'm not gonna give you what you want. I'm not gonna give you—I'm not gonna help restore the sense that there is a moral order to the world and a moral norm. What you know you know.

JAD: If this is the singular moment in Shakespeare where he gives you an un-understandably evil man. No motives. No reason. Any idea what the hell he was intending?

JAMES SHAPIRO: What you know you know.

ROBERT: Meaning?

JAD: Any idea what was in his mind? Was he trying to make a commentary or something? Was he grappling with something? Do we know?

JAMES SHAPIRO: What you know you know.

JAD: Damn it!

ROBERT: [laughs]

JAMES SHAPIRO: The good Iagos make you want to shower the minute you leave the theater because you are sullied by them.

ROBERT: Thank you to James Shapiro, whose most recent book is called Contested Will.

JAD: You know what? You know, unless ...

ROBERT: He had you there.

JAD: Yeah, well. You know what I'm left thinking though, is if you could somehow—I mean, that was make believe, but if you could somehow get a real Iago in the room and subject that person to questioning, and really get him to sort of fess up as to why they did it, would that make a difference?

ROBERT: We should say that this next section of the program has some references which are extremely graphic and not to everybody's tastes. So if you have kids in the—in the room, maybe this is a time they tell them to go brush their teeth or something.

AARON SCOTT: Yeah. Yeah.

ROBERT: It comes to us from our reporter, Aaron Scott.

JEFF JENSEN: Aaron?

AARON: Yeah?

JEFF JENSEN: Jeff Jensen

AARON: Nice to meet you.

JEFF JENSEN: Nice to meet you.

JAD: All right. So who is this guy we're hearing?

AARON: This is Jeff Jensen, and he's a reporter in LA. And he wrote this graphic novel that I read about one of the most prolific serial killers in US history.

JEFF JENSEN: Gary Leon Ridgway.

AARON: The Green River Killer.

JEFF JENSEN: The first victims of the Green River killer were found in the summer of 1982.

[NEWS CLIP: The Green River murders terrorized Seattle in the 1980s.]

[NEWS CLIP: In Seattle today, a man called the Green River killer ...]

AARON: Ridgway murdered at least 49 women.

[NEWS CLIP: The so-called Green River Killer.]

AARON: But it's suspected that it could be upwards of 75.

JAD: Wow!

[NEWS CLIP: Making him the most prolific serial killer in American history.]

JEFF JENSEN: All the victims were prostitutes.

AARON: He buried them, or left their bodies in these little clumps in the woods.

[NEWS CLIP: The killer seems to have placed their bodies as if they were mannequins.]

JEFF JENSEN: And in January of 1984, the Green River Task Force was formed. And my father was recruited to the task force.

AARON: So Jeff wrote this book because his father, Tom Jensen, was one of the lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgway. He ultimately spent 17 years searching for this man.

JEFF JENSEN: In December of 2001, my father and his colleagues make the arrest.

[NEWS CLIP: DNA testing matched him to the crime.]

JEFF JENSEN: They arrest Gary Leon Ridgway. And on June 13, 2003, Gary was secretly taken out of his jail cell and brought to a sort of very nondescript, concrete, ugly office building. And ...

AARON: Over the next six months ...

JEFF JENSEN: From June to early December ...

AARON: ... it was Tom's job to get Gary to open up.

JEFF JENSEN: And give up the few details that they really needed to link him certifiably to all these crimes.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, John Natson: Today's date is June 17. Year 2003. The time now is 08:36 hours.]

AARON: So every day they would bring him into this conference room.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, John Natson: This is a continuation of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgway.]

AARON: And interrogate him.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Yeah, why don't you just—what do you remember since we last talked in this interview?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: I got those—I mostly—I remember picking her up at, um ...]

AARON: It immediately became apparent that there was gonna be difficulties.

ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: No, I don't know.]

AARON: He would deny things. He would obscure. He would dance around things.

JEFF JENSEN: He didn't really want to cop to everything that he did.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, John Natson: I gotta tell you, I'm not totally comfortable that you are providing all the information about ...]

AARON: Especially when it came to one particular fact.

JEFF JENSEN: What my father and his colleagues know is that something was done to these bodies, many of them after they were murdered.

JAD: Does he—is he saying what I think he's saying?

AARON: Yeah.

JEFF JENSEN: Necrophilia.

AARON: Gary is dancing around this topic.

JEFF JENSEN: Gary had denied this to his own lawyers. So my father and the other interviewer in that room that morning, Detective John Natson, they start using a line of—a tact of interviewing that was very ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: It's okay. It's okay if you did it.]

JEFF JENSEN: ... stunningly shockingly empathetic.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Nothing to be ashamed of. Thousands of people have done it before you. You're not the first one.]

JEFF JENSEN: You know, you're not the first person that's ever done this.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: You're not gonna be the last one.]

JEFF JENSEN: You won't be the last.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: That's one of the things that we—that we need to know.]

JEFF JENSEN: My father's trying to, like, reach out to him.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Okay? I know it was more than 42].

JEFF JENSEN: "It's okay to admit this. You need to admit this."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Okay? It's all right, but we've gotta know that. That's one of the things we have to know, and that's why it's okay to let out.]

JEFF JENSEN: And he does.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: I mean, yes, I did lie about that. I went back one time before. Like I said, I got to get it out. Can't keep holding it all in.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: No. It's building up inside.]

JEFF JENSEN: This was a major breakthrough.

JAD: So he ends up admitting it.

AARON: In graphic detail.

JEFF JENSEN: And it gets even more disturbing for my father as the conversation suddenly pivots to another victim.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: The one that was real close to me.]

JEFF JENSEN: By the name of Carol Christensen.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: And Christensen, I dated her several times—three times—two times before.]

JEFF JENSEN: He brings her up as an example of a—of a woman that he actually had strong feelings for.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: You liked this—you liked this girl?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: I liked her.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, John Natson: She was good to you?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: She was good to me.]

JEFF JENSEN: And as it happens, my father has very vivid memories of investigating the Carol Christensen murder. Speaking with Carol's mom, Carol's little daughter.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: I killed her. She was a—I knew she had a daughter.]

JEFF JENSEN: And so Gary starts going through this narrative of what he did to Carol.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: The last time was—she was in a hurry.]

JEFF JENSEN: She, like, was allegedly in a rush.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: And she didn't ...]

JEFF JENSEN: And it kind of like, hurt his feelings.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: Wasn't satisfied. Made me mad because she was very much in a hurry. She had something else on her mind. And I—I killed her.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: How'd you kill her?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: I choked her.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: With?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: With my arm. And the way I killed her, I cared for her because I dated her before. But it didn't turn out right.]

JEFF JENSEN: Up until that point, Gary refused to say that "From the minute I picked these women up I wanted to kill them." He claimed they were in the middle of a sex act, he would get distracted, something would happen. He just kind of went crazy. He had snapped. And almost like blaming the victims. And my father wasn't buying it.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Let's back up. Let's just back up.]

JEFF JENSEN: The fact that he kept on doing it over and over and over again was like, "Come on."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: You've been through this a lot of times before, and she's already told you she's in a hurry.]

JEFF JENSEN: "You knew what was gonna happen."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: And you've done this how many times before? Ten, fifteen, twenty times? You know what's gonna happen if she pissed you off. And you like her. You're telling us all this.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: Yes.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Yet you go into this anyway, knowing full well that it could end up in her death.]

JEFF JENSEN: And Gary just says ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: Yes.]

JEFF JENSEN: "That is true. When I picked them up I was gonna kill them." Finally, acknowledging yeah, that's true. There's a pause, and my father just says ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Why?]

JEFF JENSEN: "Why?"

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: Um ...]

JEFF JENSEN: "Why did you do this?"

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Did you need to kill?]

JEFF JENSEN: And that was a question that had haunted my father for decades.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Why?]

JEFF JENSEN: In that 'why,' in that one simple 'why' that he asked Gary, there was a lot of questions he was asking. Why did you inflict all this suffering on them, on us? Why did you take these women off the streets and want to destroy them?

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: Why?]

JEFF JENSEN: Why? And the answer is unsatisfying.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Gary Leon Ridgway: Yes, I did mean to kill. I needed to kill her because of that.]

JAD: Wait, what?

AARON: I just needed to kill because of that. And then he just trails off.

JAD: "I need to kill because of that." That's it?

AARON: Yeah.

JEFF JENSEN: You know, "I just want to kill them. I just needed to kill them." In that moment, my father, he stands up and he says ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: You touched me, Gary.]

JEFF JENSEN: "You touched me, Gary."]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Tom Jensen: You've touched me. I'm gonna take a break.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, John Natson: Okay, we're going off tape now. It's 09:24 hours on June 17, year 2003.]

JEFF JENSEN: He walked out of the room and just started weeping.

AARON: They spent the next six months interrogating him. They brought in psychiatrists and forensic psychologists to try to get an answer. And Gary said, "I needed to kill them," they go, "Why?" And he says, "Because of the rage." And "Well, why the rage?" And "Because women have stepped on me all my life." "Well, why can't you deal with it in a normal way?" Each answer just begs another why. And even though in the end they got him to confess to these 49 murders, they never really get any closer to an answer than this first one.

JEFF JENSEN: That afternoon, he gets in his car, goes home. He finds my mom on the deck, sits down next to her. She says, "What happened today?" My dad said, "I don't want to talk about it." And to this day they have not talked about that day. And he hasn't talked about it with anyone until I interviewed him for the book.

AARON: And why is it so important, do you think, to understand the why behind such an evil act?

JEFF JENSEN: Well, the thing that haunts me about the 'why' question that I'm reminded of one of the oldest stories in the Bible, which is the story of Job. The story of Job is that one day God and Satan were having a conversation. And they're saying, "Have you checked out Job? You know, I'm really proud of Job. He believes in me and he trusts me so much, and he has such great faith in me." And Satan's like, "Well, I bet I can change his mind." And so Satan basically systematically destroys Job's life: takes away his wife, his children, all his material possessions. What follows is this ongoing conversation between Job and his friends about why does this happen? Why does God allow this to happen? Only then does God speak up and kind of say, like, "You're gonna question me?" Like, you know, "Who are you?"

JEFF JENSEN: My point is sometimes when we ask the 'why' in the face of profound evil I kind of wonder if what we're doing is that we're daring God to show himself. And I think what we want out of the why is meaning, meaning to life, to reveal itself in a way that restores order and give us hope that all of this isn't just meaningless chaos.

ROBERT: Jeff Jensen's book is the Green River Killer: A True Detective Story. It's a graphic or an illustrated novel.

JAD: Thanks also to reporter Aaron Scott for that story.

ROBERT: This is Radiolab.

JAD: Thanks for listening.

[DAN CHARLES: Hi, this is Dan Charles.]

[JEFF JENSEN: Hi, my name is Jeff Jensen.]

[FRED KAUFMAN: Hey, it's Fred Kaufman.]

[DAN CHARLES: I am—I'm calling to read the credits. Here we go.]

[JEFF JENSEN: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad.]

[FRED KAUFMAN: Our staff includes ...]

[DAN CHARLES: Ellen Horne ...]

[JEFF JENSEN: Soren Wheeler ...]

[FRED KAUFMAN: Pat Walters ...]

[DAN CHARLES: Tim Howard ...]

[JEFF JENSEN: Lynn Levy ...]

[FRED KAUFMAN: Brenna Farrell ...]

[DAN CHARLES: ... and Sean Cole.]

[JEFF JENSEN: With help from Adam Cole, Rachel James and Matt Kielty.]

[FRED KAUFMAN: Othello recording courtesy of BAM ...]

[DAN CHARLES: Brooklyn Academy of Music, Hamm Archives.]

[JEFF JENSEN: Special thanks to Louis Flecks, Eugene Sacker, Sierra Hahn and everyone in the Manuscripts and Archives Department at Yale University Library. Thanks!]

[ANSWERING MACHINE: End of message.]

 

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