JAD: Hey I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab, and today we're talking about color.

JAY NEITZ: Okay.

JAD: And that actually brings us back to Jay Neitz.

JAY NEITZ: I'm a professor of ophthalmology, University of Washington, Seattle.

JAD: Jay has actually spent his entire career trying to get creatures to see colors that they normally can't see.

JAY NEITZ: I—well, yeah.

JAD: And he started—this is kind of an interesting story—by taking some color blind monkeys who couldn't see red.

JAY NEITZ: They have blue cones, green cones, but no red cones.

JAD: Which is not unlike a lot of human males. In any case, he had these monkeys and was able to take the human gene for the red cone, wrap it in a virus ...

JAY NEITZ: And we ...

JAD: Inject it into the monkey's eyes and—bam! The monkeys suddenly had red cones.

JAY NEITZ: Yeah.

ROBERT: Oh my God!

JAY NEITZ: So it had blue, green, and red.

JAD: Was this like Lasik, so it was just like a 10-minute outpatient situation for the monkeys?

JAY NEITZ: I would say close. Close to Lasik.

ROBERT: Could they then now see red?

JAY NEITZ: Well, every single morning before they get their breakfast they have to do their color vision test. So ...

ROBERT: So he'd sit each monkey at a computer.

JAY NEITZ: We had a touch screen.

ROBERT: And the screen looks totally gray. But in that field of gray, he adds a little red blob.

JAY NEITZ: Right.

JAD: Now here's the key.

JAY NEITZ: We use grape juice as the reinforcement.

JAD: For the monkeys.

JAY NEITZ: But ...

JAD: The game is ...

JAY NEITZ: You have the touch the blob before you get your juice.

JAD: So before the surgery they weren't seeing any blobs and they weren't getting any juice because all they could see was gray. So a little red blob could be right there in front of them and they'd never see it. And the morning after their Lasiks color booster shot ...

JAY NEITZ: Okay, you should be able to see it.

JAD: They still couldn't see it. Day after day, they would do their test.

JAY NEITZ: Mm-hmm.

JAD: And every day they would fail.

JAY NEITZ: Every day they would fail.

JAD: No blob, no juice.

JAY NEITZ: But it's fun for them. They get out of their cage, and they talk to their friends and ...

ROBERT: Did you fail? Yeah I failed. Did you fail?

JAD: I failed. [laughs] Another day, another fail.

ROBERT: Until one morning ...

JAY NEITZ: After about 20 weeks.

ROBERT: Jay woke up the monkeys, gave them the test ...

JAY NEITZ: and they began to not fail.

JAD: Really!

ROBERT: Really!

JAD: If you watch the video of this, it actually looks like the monkey is like ...

JAY NEITZ: Wow! You know, I'm not having any failures.

JAD: And check out this dot! Look at this thing!

ROBERT: Check it out!

JAY NEITZ: So I did get some sense, that they felt like that their life had improved.

JAD: Now if this worked so well with the monkeys, couldn't you take a colorblind human and give them back the thing they're missing?

JAY NEITZ: Absolutely. We could cure colorblindness in a human with exactly this technique.

ROBERT: Really!

JAY NEITZ: The only thing that we have to do is convince the FDA that the risks are low enough and the benefit is high enough that it'd be something we could do in people.

ROBERT: Have you tried it?

JAD: You've never tried it, or ...?

JAY NEITZ: No, we've never tried it. Although I get a lot of emails that say "I don't care what the risks are." I've even had offers. "How about if I come to your laboratory, and you don't tell anybody late at night, and you give me the shot in the eye and we won't tell anyone."

JAD: Which brings us back to our original question: if you can take a colorblind human and give them normal color vision, could you take a normal color seer and boost them to make them a little more shrimpy?

JAY NEITZ: [laughs] Well, yes. Yeah.

JAD: He said sure, why not? But then there's the whole FDA thing. But here's the real surprise.

ROBERT: Jay says there are some people who are already a little bit mantis shrimp-like. There are color mutants—if I may call them that in the nicest possible way—among us.

JAD: Or they're out there in theory. Okay, so there's the deal. The genes for the cones in our eyes that see color, you know the red, green, and blue cones?

ROBERT: Yeah.

JAD: They're on the X chromosome. Now men, as we know, only have one of those.

ROBERT: Women have two X chromosomes.

JAD: Which means that women have two sets of these cone-making genes. Normally, one set is just a spare, it's not used, but still they've got two sets.

JAY NEITZ: And so someone said "A ha!"

JAD: It is theoretically possible that in some women, this spare set of genes might mix up, turn on, morph into a whole new cone—a fourth cone!

JAY NEITZ: We're gonna call it the yellow cone.

JAD: So if people with normal color vision are tri-chromats because they've got three cones ...

JAY NEITZ: A woman like that would be a tetra-chromat. So all together she'd have a blue cone a green cone a yellow cone and a red cone.

JAD: But she wouldn't just see more yellow. This new yellow would mix with the red and the blue and the green to create thousands, maybe millions of more shades of color.

JAY NEITZ: This amazing—technicolor is not the right word. It's whatever would be the next kind of color that would be even more super duper.

JAD: This was just a though experiment?

JAY NEITZ: Yeah but ...

ROBERT: Jay actually figured out a way to test for this.

JAY NEITZ: We can look at people's blood and I can say this woman has the gene for blue cones, green cones, yellow cones, red cones.

ROBERT: Oh, so you can do a DNA test, really.

JAY NEITZ: Yeah.

JAD: So he started doing blood tests, and he found this one woman ...

JAY NEITZ: She worked at the same place we did.

JAD: Crazily enough.

JAY NEITZ: At the university.

JAD: He looked at her DNA, and he saw the gene for the fourth cone.

JAY NEITZ: Yeah.

ROBERT: Wow.

JAD: So did she see in super technicolor or—how would you even know?

JAY NEITZ: That was—that was a problem. And so we thought of an experiment in order to be able to see whether or not she had this extra dimension of color vision.

JAD: He was able to produce these two yellow lights that to us, you know, trichromats, normal trichromats, look totally identical.

JAY NEITZ: We're colorblind to that difference.

JAD: But to a tetrachromat, a woman with this fourth cone, they would look totally different.

JAY NEITZ: Yeah. So I brought her in. I said, "Okay, here it is. Do you see these as different?" And she said no.

JAD: No!

JAY NEITZ: I don't see them as ...

JAD: No!

JAY NEITZ: ... any different! But the story doesn't end there.

ROBERT: Good!

JAD: Jay told us about a colleague of his in England.

JAY NEITZ: She's at Newcastle.

JAD: Named Gabrielle Jordan. And she apparently found eight of these women with the extra cone. And out of those eight ...

JAY NEITZ: Seven of those women behaved exactly like the person that I had tested.

JAD: Couldn't see the difference.

JAY NEITZ: But one of them ...

JAD: Took one look at those two yellows and said ...

JAY NEITZ: "No, they look totally different to me."

JAD: Oh ho! One of these women was—saw—saw it as different. So one of them had the cone, but could use it and the others had the cone but couldn't use it?

JAY NEITZ: Yup. So why is that?

JAD: Yeah, why?

JAY NEITZ: Well, this is the part if you'd like I could tell you what my theory is of what's going on.

JAD: Yeah.

JAY NEITZ: So I think that ...

ROBERT: Jay says let's just imagine you grow up in a world without color.

JAY NEITZ: Completely and totally a black and white world. Houses would be painted black and white. Printers would only print in black and white.

ROBERT: Even the TVs ...

JAY NEITZ: They would just have black and white TV. Women's makeup would be just you know, either dark or light.

ROBERT: So it wouldn't make any difference if you had color vision because you would never use that color vision, there'd be no words for color. Now just to make it interesting, let's imagine one day a bright red apple plops into your world.

JAY NEITZ: How would you react to it?

JAD: Would you see it?

JAY NEITZ: So ...

JAD: You think?

JAY NEITZ: Well, so that's a very good question.

JAD: Maybe, says Jay, even though you have the ability to see that red apple—if you've never had a chance to use that ability? To practice? It may just lay dormant. And that he thinks might be what happens to women living with the extra cone in our world.

JAY NEITZ: They're very rarely subjected to colors that would stimulate their extra kind of cone differently.

JAD: So you're saying those other colors just aren't around enough for them?

JAY NEITZ: Yeah. Everything that we make is based on the fact that humans are trichromatic. The television only has three colors. Our color printers have three different colors. There's nothing out there that we make artificially that a tetrachromat could see.

JAD: But Jay says maybe ...

JAY NEITZ: Some women because they're just more aware or—because of the job that they do ...

JAD: Maybe someone who works with color all the time like a florist or a painter.

JAY NEITZ: Little by little -

JAD: Because they're paying such close attention.

JAY NEITZ: Their brain would learn to see that difference.

ROBERT: Huh.

JAD: So naturally we wanted to find one of these mythic ladies -

ROBERT: We're hoping not mythic maybe we -

JAD: The reason I say that is because we tried to find that one woman that he mentioned you know the one out of eight.

ROBERT: Yeah.

JAD: And we had a—a really hard time and we began to doubt that she even existed. And then we began to look online and you see all these websites saying are you a tetrachromat, contact us contact us. Everyone is searching for these women and we—we began to feel like we were chasing unicorns a little bit. But then our producer Tim Howard claimed—claimed that he had found one.

[GPS: Recalculating.]

TIM HOWARD: Yeah you are.

[GPS: Turn right on Sarah Street.]

JAD: He'd been in touch with Jay. Jay told him that he tested a woman, determined that she had the fourth cone and this woman was an interior designer.

ROBERT: Oh.

JAD: But Jay had not yet determined whether she could use her 4th cone so we sent Tim to Pittsburgh where she lives.

[door slams]

SUSAN HOGAN: Hi there.

JAD: To see what he could find out.

TIM: Hey how are you?

SUSAN HOGAN: Hi I'm Susan Hogan, I'm a mother of three and an interior designer.

JAD: What was she like?

TIM: She's great.

TIM: Oh you have a jukebox.

SUSAN HOGAN: huh. [laughs] Really—you want me to play something?

TIM: How bout number 307? It just seems appropriate cause it's about color.

SUSAN HOGAN: Whiter shade of pale. [laughs]

TIM: she told me a lot about how she uses color in her work.

SUSAN HOGAN:—you see the different colors of paint.

TIM: Yeah.

TIM: Because she thinks a lot about it in terms of painting walls.

SUSAN HOGAN: I know the way

TIM: Yeah

SUSAN HOGAN: the sun is oriented in a room each wall will look a different color even though you paint ...

TIM: In any case here was my plan. I'd ordered this test before I went to Pittsburgh that Jay had suggested I get ...

TIM: All right open it open it open it -

TIM: It involved these little pieces of brown fabric.

JAD: Okay.

TIM: They all look identical.

LYNN LEVY: They look strikingly the same to me.

TIM: Yeah, Lynn, Brenna, me, Soren ...

SOREN WHEELER: Those are completely indistinguishable.

TIM: Couldn't see a difference.

LYNN: Do they all look the same to you guys?

SOREN: Yes.

LYNN: Okay.

JAD: But I'm assuming they're actually not all the same.

TIM: That's the trick. Jay said if you show them to a real tetrachromat they're gonna be able to see these subtle differences that you know—you and I can't see.

TIM: And back to Pittsburgh.

TIM: How bout we head over to that tree—is that—that look good?

SUSAN HOGAN: I need to take my shoes off.

TIM: Oh yeah.

SUSAN HOGAN: Cause it'll be much more fun [laughs]

TIM: Yeah.

SUSAN HOGAN: For me.

TIM: We ended up doing the test in a nearby park.

TIM: We're gonna do a bunch of these if you don't mind.

TIM: In the first trial ...

TIM: All right.

TIM: I took out three of the swatches. two that were exactly the same and one that was supposedly different.

JAD: And when you took it out could you see the difference?

TIM: No, no.

JAD: Huh.

TIM: So I go behind the tree and whisper into the mic.

TIM: Number three is different. Number three. I hope you couldn't hear me.

SUSAN HOGAN: No, I couldn't.

TIM: I'll let you take a look.

TIM: She steps back from the swatches—gives it a look for a moment, and then she says ...

SUSAN HOGAN: Number three.

TIM: Third one is different.

SUSAN HOGAN: Looks more neutral, less red than one and two on the left.

TIM: One for one.

JAD: Luck.

TIM: So I went behind the tree. I—changed up the swatches. So that now—the middle swatch was the odd one out.

TIM: And same same deal ready set go.

SUSAN HOGAN: Easy. [laughs]

TIM: Which number looks different?

SUSAN HOGAN: The middle one.

TIM: Number two.

SUSAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

TIM: You're right.

JAD: Really!

SUSAN HOGAN: [laughs] Yeah.

TIM: Wow. Okay.

TIM: Then I figured I gotta make it harder. I switched it up and I made it so all three are different and I didn't tell her.

TIM: All three are different.

SUSAN HOGAN: All three different.

TIM: Wow.

SUSAN HOGAN: Green red, less red.

TIM: Knocking this out of the park.

SUSAN HOGAN: Why didn't I do this well on my SATs, Tim?

JAD: Wow, you found her! I had—I was sure that—that she was not gonna be—there's no way this test can work.

TIM: Well it actually might not have totally worked.

JAD: Wait what—did she start to fail?

TIM: There—there's one little thing I didn't mention.

JAD: What?

TIM: I brought along a friend.

JASON LACROIX: I'm Jason LaCroix.

TIM: Painter.

JASON LACROIX: Landscape, still life.

TIM: Thought I'd try him out as a control.

JAD: Oh cause you were thinking—let's—get someone who likes color but is a boy and can't be a tetrachromat.

TIM: Right.

TIM: Okay so ...

TIM: And—when we tried the exact same test with him -

TIM: I mean these three they look the same, don't they to you? No?

JASON LACROIX: I see different.

TIM: He was amazing.

JAD: Oh.

JASON LACROIX: The first one on the left, two jumped out immediately.

SUSAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JASON LACROIX: Number 1. They all three look different to me.

TIM: Wow.

JAD: Was he just as good as Susan?

TIM: Yeah. I was a little bit disappointed I gotta say.

JAD: And there was nowhere where he couldn't do it and she could?

TIM: No, but I mean I only had pieces of brown cloth! You know?

JAD: So it doesn't prove anything I guess. She still

TIM: No!

JAD: might be a tetrachromat right?

TIM: For all I know! And—there was this one moment—I know it doesn't prove anything but I asked her—I asked her about the sky. And the sky was just that quintessential sky blue.

JAD: mmhm

TIM: And she was—I was like what do you see? And she's like -

SUSAN HOGAN: I see um—do you see some of the pink in the blue? See I see a lot of pink like among the blue. There's red in that blue.

JAD: She was looking up at a blue sky and seeing red?

TIM: Yeah yeah.

SUSAN HOGAN: Do you see that?

TIM: No...

SUSAN HOGAN: Oh I see so much red like up—and it's ...

TIM: it's kind of a cop out but it's just kind of that perfect sky blue.

SUSAN HOGAN: No? Okay that's—that's ...

TIM: Where do you where do you see the reds?

SUSAN HOGAN: It's just mixed in there.

TIM: That's cool.

SUSAN HOGAN: One thing I don't see is any green in that blue. I just see reds right—especially around like a white cloud [XX?] -

TIM: And at that moment I felt like—my sky is boring.

JAD: I'm so sorry for you. For us.

TIM: I'm sorry for us.

SUSAN HOGAN: [XX?] I mean how do we know that—any of this makes sense? [laughs] You know that's the fun of it I guess.

TIM: Yeah.

ROBERT: You know what we haven't talked about yet?

JAD: What's that?

ROBERT: where do the colors come from?

JAD: You mean like ...

ROBERT: Like ...

JAD: Sky colors?

ROBERT: no no like painterly colors like like marine blue and and -

JAD: Oh like artificial colors.

ROBERT: Well no they're not ar- that's the thing. You'd think they'd come from a factory or something but originally they came from the earth.

JAD: Yeah.

ROBERT: And and and there's one story about color that has haunted me hm—for about a—a year and a half. It's so strange.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Mm.

ROBERT: I don't know know if it's true or not but I mean I I don't know if even you know -

VICTORIA FINLAY: It was in my book of course! [laughs]

ROBERT: That's Victoria Finlay again. Her book is called Color. And this story starts with—well a particular kind of goop.

VICTORIA FINLAY: It's a color called gamboge. It's—it's named after Cambodia the French word for Cambodia. And it comes from the sap of a tree that grows in the Cambodia Vietnam Thailand border area.

JAD: And this is a yellow color?

VICTORIA FINLAY: Well it's a yellow color but -

ROBERT: How you get it is really the stick part.

VICTORIA FINLAY: I mean the way they get it is that they cut a slash [wood cutting noise] in the bark—and then hitch up a tube made of bamboo.

ROBERT: About the circumference of a quarter?

VICTORIA FINLAY: Yes.

ROBERT: And then little droplets of goop come out?

VICTORIA FINLAY: Little tiny droplets of goo.

ROBERT: And they fill up the tube. The same way you know you get maple syrup or rubber.

VICTORIA FINLAY: But they leave it for a couple of years.

ROBERT: Years.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Years. All right so it's a really slowwww process.

ROBERT: So slow -

VICTORIA FINLAY: Drop.

ROBERT: That some pretty strange things -

VICTORIA FINLAY: Drop.

ROBERT: can happen in that time.

JAD: What do you mean?

ROBERT: Sap has secrets.

JAD: Secrets. What secrets.

ROBERT: Well you know—wait a minute. So—after two long years. The harvesters come back and each of those tubes.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Is now full of this—quite quite like plastic, it's sort of it's got that sort of plastic resin-y kind of feel.

ROBERT: But that's just the beginning. The resin makes this incredible transformation. Which we actually saw, Sean and I ...

SEAN COLE: Hello.

ROBERT: Hi.

ROBERT: Thanks to this guy.

GEORGE KREMER: My name is George Kremer, I'm a color man.

ROBERT: He owns Kremer Pigments in Manhattan and he sells this gamboge.

GEORGE KREMER: It is an important yellow.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Oh it's amazing when you use it.

GEORGE KREMER: We have it powdered and in the resin form.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Because when you have a look at it -

GEORGE KREMER: Okay this here.

VICTORIA FINLAY: It's just like this dull—[X?] brown color.

ROBERT: Imagine like a—a ball of earwax.

VICTORIA FINLAY: And you think oh that's not a very interesting color.

ROBERT: Dusky sort of -

VICTORIA FINLAY: That's like a really boring color. But then you put a drop of water on it.

[clicking noise]

ROBERT: Or you grind it up in a bowl.

ROBERT: A little water.

GEORGE KREMER:—[X?] it looks like this.

ROBERT: Oh.

GEORGE KREMER: [XX?]

ROBERT: And there it is.

ROBERT: Wow!

GEORGE KREMER: There's a little bit of white-

VICTORIA FINLAY: It's bright.

ROBERT: Very bright yellow.

VICTORIA FINLAY: It's bright fluorescent yellow.

ROBERT: Suddenly it's like pow!

VICTORIA FINLAY: I mean it is—quite an exciting color.

ROBERT: Very very [X?]. Wow.

VICTORIA FINLAY: I carried one around for ages. Have a look at this color, look how boring it is. Now put a drop of water on it, showing kids, and I was really happy. I even gave it to one kid who was who was just so delighted. And was only afterwards that I found out that it's dangerous I mean I I ...

JAD: Wait, it's dangerous why?

GEORGE KREMER: You get bad diarrhea.

IAN GARRETT: When the guys used to chip it in small pieces- there was actually a time built in

from the visit the toilet at least once an hour.

ROBERT: Ian Garrett knows that because he was technical director at this art supply company called Windsor and Newton in England. And here's what really got us interested in all this. Back in the 1980s, Windsor and Newton would get these shipments of gamboge from Cambodia and they would take it to—to this production room.

IAN GARRETT: Quite a dusty area, just had a table in there ...

ROBERT: Big ole table where the workers would sit.

IAN GARRETT: And then they would have this hammer- put the gamboge pieces on this lump of iron and then hit it [hitting metal sound] and shatter it into small pieces.

VICTORIA FINLAY: Cause that's how they make it into a kind of usable sellable paint.

ROBERT: And one day as one of the workers was chipping it and scraping at the resin -

VICTORIA FINLAY: There they were.

ROBERT: They found something in the resin that they didn't expect.

VICTORIA FINLAY: they found bullets.

JAD: Bullets? Like in the hunks of resin?

VICTORIA FINLAY: Lodged in them yeah.

ROBERT: Sometime in that two year drip drip process—toward the end probably as the resin was getting thick, a bullet went whizzing through the air, went thwack! Into the goop and stayed there. Actually it wasn't just one bullet.

IAN GARRETT: There was a total of about a dozen.

ROBERT: And those are just the ones he found lying around the factory. There were probably many more.

IAN GARRETT: They fall into two thoughts. There's a very sharp pointed one about just over an inch long—and then the other type of—a small sort of barrel shapes. Which are about three quarters of an inch long. About half a dozen of each. And how they g to there and what they pass through on the way into the gamboge I'm not sure.

ROBERT: What we do know of course is that those years in Cambodia were years of war and murder—a million and a half people died there, most of them in the killing fields. And that's the same place where you find the gamboge trees.

VICTORIA FINLAY: I mean it's shocking really, and it cause it—those were just the random little bamboo tubes on—hanging on the trees. What happened in that grove? What terrible things happened?

ROBERT: The proposition here would be that at some point maybe—cause of the famous killing fields ...

VICTORIA FINLAY: mmhm

ROBERT: That some 14 year olds with Kalashnikov rifles after finishing a series of murders or just—shot lots of -bullets?

VICTORIA FINLAY: They would have just sprayed that grove. In order to get into the little tiny bamboo canisters collecting this gamboge.

ROBERT: Yeah wow.

VICTORIA FINLAY: They would have to have sprayed that entire grove with machine—machine gun bullets. And in that year or two years—- somebody—murdered people I should think.

IAN GARRETT: Well I mean they they—it's not necessarily a battle scenario. It could have been target practice. You see these things hanging on the side of a tree you—you wanna practice your—marksmanship.

JAD: But there—I mean, there is a way in which there's violence in this color. I guess there's vi—it makes me

IAN GARRETT: Yeah.

JAD: wonder about the—does it ever give you pause?

IAN GARRETT: Did it ever give me what sorry?

JAD: Pause?

IAN GARRETT: Pause, oh.

JAD: Yeah.

IAN GARRETT: Uh...not really. We were too remote—bought it from a guy in Holland who bought it from an exporter who got it from—lord knows where in Cambodia.

JAD: But the idea that it could have been attached to—to that—bloodshed. Does that bother you at all?

IAN GARRETT: Are you saying—do I think it's—it's morally acceptable? Is that what you're asking me?

JAD: Yeah.

IAN GARRETT: Um...no it wasn't Windsor Newton who discovered these things. These things were damaged by customers.

ROBERT: You're a hard hearted man I feel!

IAN GARRETT: I had never thought about it until you—until you pitched it like that.

JAD: As we kept on talking, Ian made it clear, it wasn't that he hadn't thought about the violence per se, it's just that—it wasn't like breaking news to him. They sell some pigments that come straight out of hills that are right in the middle of war zones. Okay. Colors are sometimes soaked in blood. That's just how it is.

IAN GARRETT: On the other side of the coin I've made it my career in 40 years to make artists paints on the basis that people who paint tend not to make war. It's a—a peaceful occupation.

GEORGE KREMER: That is more or less what they used in the -

ROBERT: And George Kremer who runs the paint shop—he was pretty much of the same mind.

GEORGE KREMER: Where is their heart -

ROBERT: You could think of it this way. Imagine the first person to ever find this brilliant yellow. Maybe 10,000 years ago. He's walking through the forest after it's rained and he sees it there on a tree and he's amazed so he puts his finger into the yellow and then dabs some on his face and he feels instantly beautiful. Like larger than himself.

GEORGE KREMER: It is about being related to something transcendent.

ROBERT: And that says George is the other side of the coin.

GEORGE KREMER: [XXX?] high or whatever. Therefore you—the [XX?] be used for all sort of ceremonies.

ROBERT: Marriages, feasts, maybe war paint, to feel invincible. Any moment he suspects that needed to be pulled out of the ordinary—and lifted up.

GEORGE KREMER: Whether you need something that is bright, something that is beautiful. And—special. And this yellow—gives you something special. It is a perfect yellow.

JAD: Thank you to Victoria Finley—her book is called Color, short and simple, to the point.

ROBERT: And to Ian Garrett—of Windsor and Newton who did not wither under our withering moral attack.

JAD: On the contrary.

[LISTENER: This is Amy Lantica from Boston Massachusetts. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]

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