JAD ABUMRAD: Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT KRULWICH: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab, and today ...

ROBERT: Inheritance—what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't.

JAD: Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange.

ROBERT: Yeah.

JAD: Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control.

ROBERT: No.

JAD: So we're gonna leave you with a story from our producer Pat Walters about one woman's radical ...

ROBERT: Even troubling.

JAD: ... attempt to regain that control.

SMITTY HARRIS: Howdy. Come on in.

JAD: A few months ago, Pat made his way down to North Carolina to a small suburb outside of Charlotte to visit this family.

KALIA HARRIS: Mama!

PAT WALTERS: Mama was the one I'd come to see. She and I snuck away from the children into her office.

PAT: This is great. This is nice and quiet. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning.

BARBARA HARRIS: That's fine.

PAT: What year was it? Where were you?

BARBARA HARRIS: Okay. 1989.

PAT: So this is Barbara.

BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. I'm the founder and director of Project Prevention.

PAT: And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County.

BARBARA HARRIS: And I was a waitress. I worked for IHOP for over 30 years.

PAT: And she was a mom too.

BARBARA HARRIS: Six sons.

PAT: She and her husband.

SMITTY HARRIS: Smitty Harris.

PAT: What do you do for a living?

SMITTY HARRIS: Surgical technician.

JAD: Six boys is a lot of boys.

PAT: But at that point, just two of the six boys were living at home: Brian and Rodney.

BARBARA HARRIS: And they were seven and eight at the time.

PAT: And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had: she started to wish again that she could have a daughter.

BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah.

PAT: And by this point, she's 37 years old.

BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was gonna get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. So ...

PAT: She did. She filled out the forms. Went ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Through all the training that we had to do and first aid, and fingerprinted and had a background check done.

PAT: And then they waited for the call.

BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was gonna name her Destiny. And ...

PAT: That summer ...

BARBARA HARRIS: ... it was July.

PAT: ... they got the call.

BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Is that too old?" And I said, "No. No, that's okay." She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." That's what I remember her saying.

PAT: So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months.

BARBARA HARRIS: Since birth. We went to the foster home and went in. The lady knew why we were there. And Destiny was in the other room sleeping or something, I'm not sure. So we talked to her for a little while, and ...

PAT: And at a certain point, the social worker pulls out a stack of papers.

BARBARA HARRIS: With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them.

PAT: And she told Barbara there's something you need to know about this baby.

BARBARA HARRIS: She's born and tested positive for PCP, crack and heroin." And ...

PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant.

BARBARA HARRIS: And the psychologist ...

PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara ...

BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always gonna be delayed because of her prenatal neglect.

PAT: Did that scare you at all? As, like—I mean, that seems like a thing that would be kind of frightening.

BARBARA HARRIS: No, it didn't scare me.

PAT: Because she says as soon as she saw Destiny ...

BARBARA HARRIS: And sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair ...

PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter."

BARBARA HARRIS: A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much it was as if I gave birth to her.

DESTINY HARRIS: Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense.

PAT: This, of course, is Destiny. She's 22 now, and she's never even met her birth mom.

DESTINY HARRIS: No.

BARBARA HARRIS: No.

PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. And Destiny says she doesn't really care ...

DESTINY HARRIS: I mean ...

PAT: ... at all.

DESTINY HARRIS: ... I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. That's how I've always looked at it. You know, my mom needed a girl and—boop!—she got one. It's just—that's just how I've always looked at it.

PAT: And even though they look basically nothing alike—I mean, for one thing, Barbara's white and Destiny's Black, they both say that they actually often forget that they're not biologically related. They told me a bunch of these stories, one of them involving, well ...

DESTINY HARRIS: I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. You can't see that on the radio but hey, it's a fact of life.

PAT: And Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said ...

DESTINY HARRIS: She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? Like, mine are bigger, you know?" Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. That doesn't matter. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies."

BARBARA HARRIS: [laughs]

DESTINY HARRIS: Okay. And then I just had to accept it.

PAT: But we're getting ahead of ourselves here because the event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home, when they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child.

BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah, and the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me. So Barbara.

PAT: Really?

BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah, she has the same name as me. So she told me Barbara had had another baby and ...

PAT: A boy.

BARBARA HARRIS: ... did we want it? I went to the hospital and picked him up.

PAT: You picked him up right from the hospital?

BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah.

PAT: And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong.

BARBARA HARRIS: He wasn't a little happy baby.

PAT: Because when a woman uses heroin while she's pregnant, the fetus gets hooked on it, too. And so for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off, and he was going through withdrawal.

BARBARA HARRIS: Light bothered him, noise bothered him.

SMITTY HARRIS: Eyes that beaded out.

PAT: This is Smitty again.

SMITTY HARRIS: Projectile vomiting.

BARBARA HARRIS: Because he couldn't hold formula down. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming.

SMITTY HARRIS: He was just—you know, most babies are kinda peaceful. He was never really peaceful.

PAT: And day after day ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Literally for months ...

PAT: ... Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. That was it.

BARBARA HARRIS: It was just—no baby should have to come into the world like that, and nobody has a right to do that to a baby.

PAT: But a year later, the social worker called again.

BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl. Did we want her?

JAD: This is the same birth mother?

PAT: Yeah. And again, Barbara thinks, "Come on! But if this little girl is here, she should be with her brother and sister, and so she should be with me."

BARBARA HARRIS: And I called my husband again at work and said, "They want to know if we want to take the baby." And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus," because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. And so I said, "Okay, well this will be the last one. We'll just get one more."

PAT: But a year later, she gets another call.

JAD: No!

PAT: Another little boy.

BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them.

JAD: These are four kids from the same birth mother?

PAT: Yeah.

JAD: Wow!

PAT: So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking ...

BARBARA HARRIS: I just don't get it.

PAT: You know, like, how did this happen? How was this woman allowed ...

BARBARA HARRIS: To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby, and just walk away with no consequences?

PAT: Over and over again.

BARBARA HARRIS: How dare you do this?

PAT: The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Should say, "You're not doing this. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control."

PAT: Barbara tried to get a law passed requiring just that. But it failed.

BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought I have to come up with something else. I have to be creative.

PAT: And she says one day, this idea just came to her. She was thinking ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Everybody's motivated by money.

PAT: So ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control?

PAT: In other words, could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?

BARBARA HARRIS: I decided to have a press conference in my front yard to announce what I was doing. In my naïve mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was.

PAT: The story exploded ...

[NEWS CLIP: Barbara Harris's solution is simpler than anything else out there.]

PAT: ... instantly.

[NEWS CLIP: She's offering $200 ...]

[NEWS CLIP: $200.]

[NEWS CLIP: 200 bucks.]

BARBARA HARRIS: It's $300 now.

[NEWS CLIP: ... to any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: So I'm gonna go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control.]

[NEWS CLIP: This could mean sterilization. It could mean getting an IUD.]

PAT: Like, she gives the woman a choice: if you've already had a kid, you can be sterilized. And if you haven't, you can choose to have an IUD or an implant put in which will last for several years.

JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent?

PAT: Yeah, permanent. Like tubes tied.

JAD: Whoa!

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: Sounds bizarre, but it's a solution.]

[NEWS CLIP: Harris says her program, Children Requiring a Caring Community, or CRACC ...]

[NEWS CLIP: CRACC.]

[NEWS CLIP: ... can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, host: I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. Please welcome Barbara.]

PAT: As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. On one hand, she says, immediately, checks started arriving ...

BARBARA HARRIS: This is $25, this is $50.

PAT: ... from all over the country.

BARBARA HARRIS: This is $750 and this is $200.

PAT: And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives.

[NEWS CLIP: Who together pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]

PAT: And that number, by the way, has grown a lot.

BARBARA HARRIS: It's at one million. [laughs]

PAT: Uh, yeah. Over the past five years, if you look at her tax return.

JAD: Wow.

PAT: But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up.

[NEWS CLIP: Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women ...]

[NEWS CLIP: 14 women.]

[NEWS CLIP: 45 women.]

[NEWS CLIP: ... have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]

PAT: Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, host: You know what they're gonna go do with that money.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, host: You give them $200 each, which they can spend on crack.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: That's their choice. But the babies don't have a choice.]

PAT: Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd used drugs during their pregnancies.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, woman: You don't think that they should have their children back.]

PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: I feel that they should all be sterilized.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, woman: Sterilized? Who are you? You are not God.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: Like you said, when you were in your addiction like she is ...]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, woman: You are not God.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: I didn't say I'm God. She asked my opinion, and that's what I'm giving. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]

PAT: When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind?

LYNN PALTROW: I think I was really horrified and terrified.

PAT: That's Lynn Paltrow.

LYNN PALTROW: I'm executive director and founder of National Advocates for Pregnant Women.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]

PAT: Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics, and full disclosure, she's Robert's sister's partner.

LYNN PALTROW: Well, her—her explanation is that these women are having—in her terms—"litters of damaged babies," and society forever will be responsible for them.

JAD: She said litters?

PAT: In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them."

BARBARA HARRIS: I'm not saying that these women are dogs, but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat.

LYNN PALTROW: Are there people whose drug use is so out of control they can't parent? Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about.

PAT: That path is basically called...

LYNN PALTROW: Eugenics.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, woman: Well I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and he'd sterilize people as well.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. I mean, I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, host: What's the worst thing you've been called by one of your critics?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: Probably racist.]

BARBARA HARRIS: I mean, I'm married to a Black man, so that was just funny to me.

PAT: And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white.

PAT: Do you think, like ...

PAT: I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach.

PAT: ... I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me.

BARBARA HARRIS: I was just pissed at what they had done to my children and all the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. I had everybody's abuse on my back, and I didn't care how we said it or how we did it, just don't have any more children because at that point, I didn't really know any of them, so I didn't see them as people. I just saw them as child abusers. It might be a mixture.

PAT: But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore.

BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know some of these women.

PAT: Barbara has this drawer in her desk ...

BARBARA HARRIS: "To Ms. Harris and staff."

PAT: ... filled with dozens of letters from women that she's paid.

BARBARA HARRIS: "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." She said, "Thank you so much for the gift. I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." This is from 2002. "To whom it may concern, I have been doing very good. I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. Anyways, God bless you. Sincerely, Jennifer."

PAT: Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision?

BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control.

PAT: Which I find kind of hard to believe, but then again, I must have read at least a hundred news articles as I was reporting this story, and I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they've regretted what they've done.

PAT: How many women have you paid?

BARBARA HARRIS: We have paid 4,266.

PAT: That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people.

BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah.

PAT: She actually emailed me afterwards and adjusted that number down a couple hundred.

JAD: Oh. And so in the end, I mean, where do you come down on this?

PAT: I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it.

LYNN PALTROW: But the ...

PAT: Like, I agree with Lynn that this program does perpetuate a stereotype.

LYNN PALTROW: Tell me what your image of a drug-using pregnant woman is. Who are they?

PAT: It would be wrong to assume the women Barbara talks about on TV ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Barbara Harris: And these women don't just have one and two babies, they have six, seven, eight, 10, 14.]

PAT: All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant.

LYNN PALTROW: The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. These are women who love their children, who sought help.

PAT: And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. And Barbara is not offering that. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling. And there are programs that do that, but I said this to Lynn, despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program ...

PAT: I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's gonna suck.

LYNN PALTROW: The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is gonna end up helping those kids.

PAT: Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are gonna turn out.

JAD: Yeah.

PAT: Like, nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant—that is a bad way to start a kid's life. But that's just the beginning of the kid's life. So much can happen after that.

DESTINY HARRIS: He doesn't want you.

PAT: And for me, this whole story really shifted ...

BARBARA HARRIS: Where you at, Destiny?

PAT: ... when I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter.

DESTINY HARRIS: As you can see, I like to talk.

PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy, and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was gonna be mentally and physically delayed ...

DESTINY HARRIS: Just not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel.

PAT: ... she just isn't.

PAT: Could you just tell us what you are doing now? You're finishing college, right?

DESTINY HARRIS: Yes. I'm almost done. I'm graduating in December.

PAT: That's exciting.

DESTINY HARRIS: And right now, I'm student teaching. So that's fun.

PAT: But the moment I really felt like, whoa, was when we started talking about ...

PAT: The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything.

DESTINY HARRIS: [laughs] That's my little girl. She's 20 months old. She'll be two in January. And so her name is Kalia. And she's a complete nut. I don't know where she gets that from. So yeah, she keeps me busy.

PAT: Were you planning to have Kalia?

DESTINY HARRIS: No, she was an oops kid. She was totally an oops kid. We'll just be honest. I just didn't think. I just didn't think, you know? You know what they say: it only takes one time. Well yep, that is so true. One time. And nine months later. [laughs] So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. And I think that no, I didn't plan on it, but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me, 100 percent without a doubt." And I mean, I have straight As and I'm making it work, and I'm gonna graduate with honors. And one day I'm gonna be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. You can do this. Like, push yourself and you got it."

PAT: That's really impressive. I mean, you're just—you're saying a lot of things that are really impressive.

DESTINY HARRIS: To her, like, I matter. Like, I make a difference to her. [laughs]

PAT: All right, we can stop.

PAT: So we did stop. And I packed up my stuff, I was pretty much done. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. Kalia came too. I had a little basketball for her.

DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness! Can you say oh my goodness?

KALIA HARRIS: Oh my goodness.

DESTINY HARRIS: Here.

PAT: And at a certain point, I notice, like, over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out, and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene.

DESTINY HARRIS: Can you kick it?

PAT: You're training her already.

DESTINY HARRIS: Are you gonna kick it?

KALIA HARRIS: Yeah.

PAT: And I just felt like I was in one of those moments that, like, contains everything that's good about us as people.

DESTINY HARRIS: Kick it to him. Go to him.

PAT: Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing.

DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. You gotta kick it back.

PAT: Because if Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist.

DESTINY HARRIS: You want to kick it?

KALIA HARRIS: Yeah.

PAT: And I told Destiny I was thinking about this, and asked her about it.

DESTINY HARRIS: My situation turned out positive. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, like, I think I hit the jackpot. A lot of times that's not the case. And you just kind of have to weigh it. Like, is it worth it? Like, I could have turned out like some of the other kids.

PAT: Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls.

JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara?

PAT: Yeah. Three of them ended up in other foster homes, and seem to have done pretty well, but one of them ...

DESTINY HARRIS: Okay, well one of them, don't really know what happened to her. She's somewhere, but it's not good from what we've heard.

PAT: Last they heard she was living on the streets in LA.

DESTINY HARRIS: And that could have very easily have been one of us. I mean yes, I might get a great family, but I might not.

PAT: And the question that was stuck in my head right then was like, if you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?

DESTINY HARRIS: Not been born at all. I wouldn't want to put it up to chance, because what kind of life is that?

PAT: You mean that?

DESTINY HARRIS: I do mean that. Yeah. All jokes aside. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am.

KALIA HARRIS: See?

DESTINY HARRIS: She wants to see it.

KALIA HARRIS: [laughs]

DESTINY HARRIS: Back together.

PAT: What's she saying there?

DESTINY HARRIS: Taylor Swift's "Never Getting Back Together."

KALIA HARRIS: [laughs]

DESTINY HARRIS: Can you say, "Never, ever?" Baby, be careful. Just sing. Okay, you want to say bye?

KALIA HARRIS: Bye.

PAT: Bye.

KALIA HARRIS: Bye.

BARBARA HARRIS: Aw, you blew him a kiss? That was nice.

DESTINY HARRIS: Okay.

BARBARA HARRIS: That was nice.

ROBERT: Remind me this: Destiny has, what, three brothers and sisters that also were raised with her?

PAT: Yeah. Two brothers and one sister.

ROBERT: What happened to them?

PAT: Isaiah's in college, and Taylor and Brendan, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine.

JAD: And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara?

ROBERT: Do you know anything about the other four?

PAT: Just a little. There were four girls, and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them, and they all either were in college or had finished college.

ROBERT: So then the one that's in trouble, that's just one of—one of eight?

PAT: Yeah, one of eight.

JAD: So I guess you could say to yourself, "Seven out of eight of these kids did all right."

PAT: Mm-hmm.

ROBERT: That's interesting. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but it's ...

JAD: Yeah.

ROBERT: Hmm.

JAD: Producer Pat Walters.

[ANSWERING MACHINE: Start of message.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: Hi, this is Destiny Harris.]

[PEJK MALINOVSKI: This is Pejk Malinovski.]

[PAT: This is Pat Walters.]

[PAT'S DAD: This is Pat's parents.]

[PAT: Hi Mom and Dad.]

[PAT'S DAD: Calling in to help read the credits.]

[PAT'S MOM: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: Our staff includes Ellen Horne, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters ...]

[PAT'S MOM: That's my boy. Tim Howard.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: Brenna Farrell.]

[PAT'S DAD: Malissa O'Donnell.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: Dylan Keefe.]

[PAT'S MOM: Molly Webster.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: Andy Mills.]

[PAT'S MOM: Lynn Levy.]

[PAT'S DAD: And Sean Cole.]

[DESTINY HARRIS: With help from Matt Kielty, Chris Berube and Kenny Flicka.]

[PAT'S DAD: Special thanks to Martin Rouchbauer, Rory McDonald and Dinah Ortiz Adams.]

[PAT: Thank you.]

[PAT'S DAD: Cheerio!]

[ANSWERING MACHINE: End of mailbox.]

-30-

 

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