JAD ABUMRAD: I'm Jad Abumrad here with Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab. Today's topic is stress, from your point of view and from your body's point of view. Usually you and your body are on the same side. Your stomach rumbles. That means your body wants you to eat, so you do. Your foot hurts. That means your body wants you not to step on that foot so it can heal, and so you don't. The interesting and sometimes tragic thing about stress and stress disorders is that you and your body find yourself on opposing sides. Your body's just trying to protect you, but that's not the way it works out.

JAD: Consider this story about folk singer Linda Thompson. She was part of a late-'60's scene that included everyone from James Taylor to Paul Simon, Nick Drake—even Bob Dylan.

LINDA THOMPSON: All these just amazing musicians. Sometimes I think that's part of the problem. If I had hung out with mediocre musicians, I wouldn't be half so worried about what I was gonna sound like.

JAD: Linda Thompson spoke with our producer Ellen Horne.

ELLEN HORNE: I remember the first time I heard your voice. I was in college. I was at my friend Chris's house and we were all sitting on the floor around the record player listening to "I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight."

LINDA THOMPSON: Oh!

ELLEN: For weeks we tried to learn to play those songs. Your voice sounds so pure and so angelic.

LINDA THOMPSON: Oh, Ellen, that's nice of you.

ELLEN: It's just hard to imagine that voice struggling in any way.

LINDA THOMPSON: It's really horrible. It's just awful. But you get through it.

ELLEN: The trouble started in the studio.

LINDA THOMPSON: It feels like somebody's strangling you from the inside. That's what it feels like.

ELLEN: Linda would step to the mic, open her mouth to sing ...

LINDA THOMPSON: And instead of it coming out "ahh," you kind of go—some kind of squeak or constriction happens first.

ELLEN: She was recording her sixth album with husband Richard Thompson. They were one of those mythic rock and roll couples. He wrote songs for her to sing with titles like "Withered and Died" and "Down Where the Drunkards Roll." Dark songs about betrayal and loss. They played together for a decade.

LINDA THOMPSON: By that time, there were problems in my marriage, which I'm kind of fond of saying I didn't know about. But on a subliminal level, one does know these things, you know?

ELLEN: It was 1982, and Linda had just delivered their third child. Her throat hurt all the time.

LINDA THOMPSON: You know, it got—it was pretty bad, and then—I mean, I'd just come out of hospital. I'd just had a baby. I mean, he stuck around 'til the baby was born, but as soon as she was born, a couple a weeks—a week? I don't know. He told me, "I've met somebody else." I don't know if I've ever told anybody this, but the first thing I said was, "Can she sing?" [laughs] I mean, what normal person would say, "Can she sing?"

ELLEN: She was heartbroken when Richard left, and without explanation, her voice went with him. It just flew away, like someone had left the cage door open.

LINDA THOMPSON: That was really awful, and that kind of—it put the singing into perspective a bit.

ELLEN: She was mute. At home with a newborn and two young children, she was totally isolated.

LINDA THOMPSON: If you can't speak, it's just a nightmare. I mean, it's a nightmare.

ELLEN: She couldn't make a sound when she picked up the phone. Strangers looked at her, puzzled as she gestured.

LINDA THOMPSON: Nobody knew what was wrong with me. And I went to this guy and he said, "Oh, you've got hysterical dysphonia." And on one hand, it was great to know that it has a name. On the other hand, even though I'm a layman, I could understand that hysterical dysphonia meant that there was something wrong with my brain rather than my throat.

ELLEN: For months, her brain toyed with her throat. Sometimes it was totally fine. Other days, nothing. Dry gurgles would barely escape. Ironically, when she was at her worst, that album she'd had such trouble recording came out—and the critics loved it. She got some of her best reviews. The label expected them to promote the album.

LINDA THOMPSON: Richard and my manager didn't want me to do the tour. I mean, Richard said, "You know, we're not together anymore and I don't think you should do the tour." And my manager at that time, our manager, said, "You mustn't do the tour, Linda. You're not well enough. You've just had a baby and you're crazy and you mustn't do the tour."

ELLEN: Because think about what touring meant: Richard wrote their songs, many about heartbreak. Night after night, she'd have to walk on stage and sing their sad story from his perspective.

LINDA THOMPSON: And I said, "Forget it. I am absolutely doing the tour." And I was very glad I did.

ELLEN: Because something miraculous happened.

LINDA THOMPSON: Because I was so brokenhearted, my dysphonia—I mean, for whatever reason, I didn't have it and I sang really well.

ELLEN: Anger had returned her gift.

ELLEN: This tour is legendary.

LINDA THOMPSON: Absolutely. I stole a car in Canada and got arrested. Slept with too many people, took too many drugs, and drank too much stuff.

ELLEN: There's a story about you smashing up a dressing room?

LINDA THOMPSON: I did. I smashed up a dressing room, and the guys at the club said, "We had the Sex Pistols last week and they were nowhere near as bad as you," and I said, "Oh, thank you! I'm worse than the Sex Pistols!" But I wasn't actually trashing the dressing room. I was throwing things at Richard. You know, it's like every time he passed me, I'd lob something at him. And when he'd pass me on stage, I'd trip him up on stage. I mean, it was insane! Poor Richard.

ELLEN: When they played LA where Richard's new girlfriend lived, Linda Ronstadt consoled her.

LINDA THOMPSON: She pulled me out of the gutter outside The Roxy where I was lying, surrounded by champagne bottles. She pulled me out of the gutter and took me back to her house, where I was ill for days and days and days.

ELLEN: But at least her voice was back. And singing, she says, felt good.

LINDA THOMPSON: It didn't stay for long, I must say. It didn't stay for long.

ELLEN: When the tour ended, the voice took off. It left as mysteriously as it had returned.

LINDA THOMPSON: I couldn't speak when there was any peripheral noise. Like if I was in a restaurant, I would just say to the waiter, "I've lost my voice." I never went into the whole—you know—with anybody. "I've got this thing, this dysphonia," and blah blah blah. I mean, please.

ELLEN: She's never entirely recovered. The battle between brain and voice has continued for two decades.

LINDA THOMPSON: Hypnotism, that didn't work, and therapy and voice therapy and speech therapy and, you know, all sorts of things. If somebody had said to me, "If you have a heroin injection every day you'll be fine," I would have done it. Absolutely would have done it, 'cause it's just so boring not to be able to sing. It's boring. It really is boring having this kind of tight throat. And then I suddenly said, "I'm not gonna do anymore. I'm just not gonna sing." And that's what I did. I didn't sing for a long, long time.

PRODUCER: That's the only big difference from when we played it.

LINDA THOMPSON: Okay. And after the instrumental ...

PRODUCER: And after the ...

LINDA THOMPSON: ... coming straight in.

PRODUCER: Exactly. That's the other thing. But you seem to be getting that. No worries, so ...

ELLEN: This is Linda, back in the studio after 17 years.

LINDA THOMPSON: Oh gosh. Well never mind. I'll be alright.

LINDA THOMPSON: Sometimes I couldn't sing, so I would come back the next day and sing.

LINDA THOMPSON: It's the first two verses and then a wee pause, then the second.

LINDA THOMPSON: So that's how I got started again, with kind of the minimum pressure.

LINDA THOMPSON: And then the ...

PRODUCER: No, is there a pause there?

LINDA THOMPSON: Yeah.

PRODUCER: Yes, there is.

ELLEN: And the critics are raving about her voice again. To me, it sounds like it always did—clean, vulnerable, ethereal.

LINDA THOMPSON: ... no break.

PRODUCER: Yes.

ELLEN: But there is a difference.

LINDA THOMPSON: I think I'm learning to let go a little. I did a live vocal and some of it's—and some of it's shaky, but I'm leaving it all in, and I wouldn't have been able to do that a few years ago. I would have just winced. Now I don't care. I just want it to feel right. I do care, but I care a little less. That's probably the only good thing about impending old age.

ELLEN: And she added in that bleak tone I recognized from her songs ...

LINDA THOMPSON: There's absolutely nothing else to recommend it, I can tell you.

JAD: Ellen Horne is a producer for this program. For more on Linda Thompson and her music, and for more on hysterical dysphonia, check our website. Radiolab.org is the address. I'm Jad Abumrad. This is Radiolab, here with Robert Krulwich. Today we're talking about stress. Robert, let me ask you a question based on what we just heard.

ROBERT KRULWICH: Mm-hmm?

JAD: Bleak, bleak, bleak. That's how that last piece ended. And that basically describes the world we live in. How do you cope?

ROBERT: I don't. I don't cope at all. I hate. I hate deeply and I hate well.

JAD: You rage floridly.

ROBERT: I do. And as you know from working with me, there are moments when I want to kill you. That's all. It works for me!

JAD: Yes, yes.

ROBERT: But it also works for rats. I know this from Robert Sapolsky because he wrote an essay about this and I asked him about it.

ROBERT: You have a very interesting description of work with rats in which rats are put into very tense situations, but there are four or five ways in which they alleviate their pain.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: It's beautiful stuff because it essentially gets at the core of this issue. You know, most of us cope. Basic scenario animal studies, you've got two cages side by side, a rat in each cage, each of which can get a shock. And whenever one of them gets a shock, the other does. Same intensity, same duration, same everything. Sole difference is, the rat in cage one just gets the shock. The rat in cage two gets the psychological manipulation.

ROBERT: Meaning if you wanted to be one of these rats—not that you would—you'd want to be the second rat, number two. Because number one just gets zapped. Number two gets little fixes. There are four fixes he's gonna describe. Let's start with number one.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: The first version that will help the second rat. Every time it gets one of those shocks, it could run over to the other side of the cage where there's another rat it could sit down next to and bite the crap out of.

ROBERT: [laughs]

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: And you know what? That rat's gonna do just fine. He's not gonna get an ulcer, because he's giving somebody else an ulcer. He has an outlet for his frustration that ...

ROBERT: The Mike Tyson approach.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Yes.

ROBERT: If I get hit, you get hit!

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Exactly. And it's documented by science. It makes you feel better, which is why sort of the first soundbite they've gotta do with you in stress management is don't reduce your risk of an ulcer by giving it to somebody else. Make sure your outlets are not abusive ones, because they feel great. They're very effective.

ROBERT: Now to scenario number two.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Next version. This time the rat's getting the shocks, and now can go over to the other side of the cage and gnaw on a bar of wood or ...

ROBERT: I mean, just [chomping sounds]?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: This counts as a relaxing hobby for a lab rat. It once again gets out the tensions, gets out the frustration. It's an outlet.

ROBERT: I like that actually better than beating up on the other rat. This is nicer.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Much nicer world if we all gnawed on wood instead of invading countries and things like that.

ROBERT: Number three.

[NEWS CLIP: The Department of Homeland Security yesterday raised the national terror alert to orange.]

[NEWS CLIP: Orange, or high alert.]

[ARCHIVE  CLIP, George W. Bush: We are taking strong precautions.]

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Third version. In this version, the second rat knows when the next shock is coming. A little warning light comes on 10 seconds before. It gets predictive information. And for the same physical reality, you're less likely to get a stress-related disease if you get predictability. When is it coming? How bad is it going to be? How long is it going to last?

ROBERT: Oh, that makes a difference?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Yeah.

ROBERT: If you see, "Get ready, get set—bzzt!"

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Exactly.

ROBERT: Get ready, get set helps you?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Because you scrunch up and you tighten your butt and you close your eyes and you think about that Hawaii vacation or whatever it is. And this is what we're doing when we're sitting in the dentist chair and say, "Are we almost done? Give me some predictability here."

ROBERT: And finally, scenario number four.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: The last factor is this one of if the rat thinks it has control, it's not gonna get the stress-related disease. Let it press a lever. It's been trained to press this lever to decrease the chances of a shock. The lever is doing squat today. It's a placebo, it's disconnected. But the rat's pounding away the lever thinking, "This is great. Imagine how many shocks I'd be getting otherwise." It has a sense of control. Control makes stressors less stressful.

JAD: So moving along, beating up on another rat—or a person in our case—gnawing on a piece of wood, having a sense of control, even if it's false, these seem to be helpful stress-relieving techniques. Well, what about yoga? What about therapy? Do they try and talk to the rats?

ROBERT: You would, of course, figure that a professor at Stanford would come up with something therapeutic. He did, actually.

JAD: Oh, good!

ROBERT: This wasn't with rats. It was with his real field expertise, which is baboons. What Robert Sapolsky does is he goes to East Africa and he spends time with baboon troops, particular families of baboons. And he just hangs with them for really long periods of time, years even, and then writes stories and he observes things. And one of the things he observed was a therapeutic kind of stress resolution, in this case involving friendship. Here's how it went.

ROBERT: Every baboon troop has an alpha baboon. That baboon beats up all the other baboons, and is the guy who gets all the girls 'cause he's the strongest one. But in the life of every alpha baboon, there's gonna come a moment where some lesser-ranked baboon is gonna beat you up, and you lose your crown. In baboon life, when you stop being the number one ...

JAD: Do you fall to the bottom?

ROBERT: Well, what happens is the other baboons remember how cruel you were as an alpha and they take it out on you.

JAD: The other ones that are up above you now?

ROBERT: Above you. Yeah, so the number two beats you up, then number three starts to beat you up, then number four takes you on, he tries to beat you up. Then number five. I mean, you're dropping down the chain.

JAD: That doesn't seem fair, by the way.

ROBERT: That they go all the way to the bottom?

JAD: Yeah.

ROBERT: Well I don't know whether they might be, like, 34 out of 90. So they're not at the very, very bottom.

JAD: Who decides?

ROBERT: Whoever gets beat up. So ...

JAD: I know. But I mean, you beat up the alpha guy. Does he then have to fight everybody else to reestablish his spot?

ROBERT: I think, yeah. Just like a bird pecking order. Everybody fights with—it's like one of those barroom things where everybody looks at each other, they all slug it out, and then they arrange themselves in standing order afterwards.

JAD: Oh, I see.

ROBERT: "I stood next to Tom 'cause I beat up Tom, but he beat up Fred."

JAD: "At least I can still beat up Tom."

ROBERT: Yeah.

JAD: Okay.

ROBERT: It's not a happy thing, to be an aging former champ baboon. Not at all.

JAD: Well, so then if you are one of these ex-heavyweights, what do you do?

ROBERT: Well, that's the question.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: What you often do, what you do about half the time, is you pick up and you move to a different troop. You transfer to a different troop.

ROBERT: Even though you don't know anybody? You just start all over again?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Which is great. You're gonna be incredibly low ranking there because you're this broken down old male, but at least you're gonna be anonymous. And what you often see are these old, broken, battle-scarred males who show up from out of nowhere and join a troop, and he's some sweet old poop and you feel horrible watching the juveniles hassle him. And almost certainly, he was one son of a bitch in the Western Serengeti about five years before, and the guy's basically seeking political asylum.

ROBERT: Are there old guys who used to be alphas who stick around?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: That's the thing. Only about half the old guys leave. So one of the studies I did was trying to figure out who leaves and who stays. Is it the ones who were more brutal back when? Is it the ones who are getting more grief now? None of that. The ones who stay are the ones who actually manage to get friendships. This is for real. These are smart enough animals that they have social affiliative relationships that are stable over time, with females if you're an adult male.

ROBERT: What do baboon guys and girls do when they're just friends? They don't go to the movies or anything, so they ...

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: They hang out.

ROBERT: They hang out.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: They sit next to each other. They sit in physical contact. They groom each other.

ROBERT: Can you groom a lady and not get her boyfriend, the alpha of the moment, angry?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Well, the alpha's only interested in her if she's at the peak of her ovulatory cycle.

ROBERT: Oh.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: This is the rest of the ...

ROBERT: So when she's not hot, then you can go sit around and chat about things.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Exactly. And what you find is very often, females at the peak of their cycle, are in the middle of all this tumult with numbers one through three, and sort of all this male androgen musk Schwarzenegger crap. And once it's all over with, she goes back and spends the rest of her month hanging out with the somewhat aged guy who's her buddy.

ROBERT: So the baboon who had a little room in his life for friendship, not just conking and sex, but friendship, wins in the end.

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Not only do they win in this heartwarming old guy sitting in the savanna sort of picture, but also win in the Darwinian sense. What's been a revolution in the field in recent years is the recognition that these guys who do the nice guy Alan Alda affiliative stuff reproduce a whole lot. Because it turns out a lot of the time, even during the peak swelling, while number one and number two are tussling, the female runs over to the bush and mates with the Alan Alda guy ...

ROBERT: Really?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: ... because she prefers him, amazingly enough because the guy's actually nice to her.

ROBERT: Now do you know this or is this just your prayer?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: No, this is real. It's true.

ROBERT: You've counted. But how do you know that the Alan Alda guy had more babies than the Schwarzenegger guy?

ROBERT SAPOLSKY: Because people now do paternity tests. You can do stuff like get hair samples from your wild primates when they go through the bushes and some thorn pulls off some, and you go do genetic analysis. And amazingly enough, from a genetic Darwinian bloody in tooth and claw standpoint, nice guys do not finish last.

ROBERT: Robert Sapolsky is the author of many, many books and essays, including Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers and my absolute favorite, A Primate's Memoir. I spoke with him in his office in Palo Alto, California.

JAD: That about does it for us. Check our website, Radiolab.org. More information on anything that you heard tonight. And while you're there, communicate with us. Radiolab(@)wnyc.org is our email address. I'm Jad Abumrad. Robert Krulwich and I are signing off.

[LINDA THOMPSON: Okay, Steve? Keep it down, could you? Okay, this show was produced by Jad Abumrad and Ellen Horne, with production support from Brenna Farrell, Sally Herships, Rob Krieger, David Martin, Eric Milenski, Sara Pelligrini, Michael Shelley and Eleanor Park. Our special thanks to Robert Krulwich, John Elliott, Lara Kippers and WNYC's own Ed Haber, who produces my record. My name is Linda Thompson. This instrumental will be on my next album, and that's my son Teddy playing the guitar. So run, don't walk, to buy his CD, coming soon on Verve Records. Bye! Thank you!]

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