JAD ABUMRAD: Are we rolling Jamie?

JAMIE YORK: We are rolling. Chuck, can you say—how's your water?

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: My water is refreshing. It's delicious.

JAD: We like to go a little bit heavy on the minerals here in public radio.

JAD: Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT KRULWICH: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab. And today ...

ROBERT: Still talking about football.

JAD: Yes, sir.

ROBERT: This is the second half.

JAD: And you know, in the first half we talked about where football came from. Now we want to look at where it's going, which seems to be the big conversation these days. And as we were thinking about that, we ended up talking with one of our favorite sportswriters, Chuck Klosterman.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: I'm a writer and a journalist in Brooklyn.

ROBERT: You may know him from his Ethicist column in the New York Times. He also writes about sports for Grantland. And he recently wrote an essay about football and its inherent contradictions. And it recalled for us this sort of Carlisle versus Ivy/free-flow versus traditional sort of thing, but in a newer sort of modern way.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Mm-hmm.

JAD: Hey, can I ask you—so your—I want you to explain this statement—this is the thing I found most interesting about your essay. You say basically that by portraying itself as a super-conservative, traditional, manly sport, but essentially operating as the opposite, like this really liberal, wide-open "anything goes" kind of sport, football became the most successful enterprise in American sports history. So you have this sense that it's pretending to be one thing but actually another. What do you mean?

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Well, okay. It's a unique thing in the sense that if you look at a sport like soccer or baseball, there is a real sense from the people who sort of, you know, the institution of the sport to keep the sport the same. That they want the sport to sort of almost transcend time. It would be the same game now as it always is. Soccer particularly, they hate any kind of attempt to change the rules in this. Football works in the exact opposite way. Football is constantly evolving and constantly adopting new ideas and new technologies, and is very willing to alter the game in order to make it a more free-flowing or more progressive game. I mean, football will add things like coaches can talk to the quarterback through a radio in their helmet.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: It has been determined that the receiver did not maintain.]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: You know, the idea of instant replay was added very early on compared to other sports. The game itself from an offensive perspective ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP: They do it pretty fast, can't they?]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: ... is constantly being reinvented.

JAD: Chuck says if you look at all the new formations that keep getting added and all the trick plays that are tried out every year, it is quite clear that football as a game ...

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: It actually is the most liberal sport in terms of adopting ideas. But the—the morality of the game and the center of it, the thing that really draws people to love it, is sort of its almost—most reactionary qualities. That it still sort of comes down to the strongest, toughest win. And I—this is why I feel like football is both so built for American, you know, the American way of thinking, and also so popular. It allows you to sort of think about the game in a very liberal, progressive way.

JAD: In a Carlisle way.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: But spiritually, like your heart of it can still be this kind of old, comfortable conservative mindset.

JAD: Those old Ivy fundamentals of power and might and tradition.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: I'm just kind of of the belief that that's really what most people want. Most people want to think of themselves as progressive but feel conservative.

JAD: And Chuck's whole argument is that it is football's unique ability to be both at the same time: reactionary and simultaneously wildly inventive, so that you can think about it one way and feel about it another, that is what makes football ...

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: The most popular part of our sporting culture, which it is right now by a factor of three.

JAD: What he means is that the NFL's three times as popular as the next most popular sport in America. And the question we got to, just because it's a question you can't really avoid right now is, is it gonna stay that way?

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Well, it's just—we're in such a weird era for the sport. Like, this is, certainly in my lifetime, the strangest era. Like, some weird things are happening. One is that ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP: Injuries after injuries.]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: ... there seems to be no limit to the amount that we can discuss the problems with the game.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: Concussions in football.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP: If you're a coach, how do you handle all this discussion about neurologists and head injuries going forward?]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: The idea that so many former NFL players are essentially, you know, decrepit and ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP: My former center, a lot of head problems.]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: We study their brains after they die, and they have the brains of people who should have been 180 years old and had Alzheimer's or whatever, you know? There was just a kid from Ohio State who shot himself in a dumpster.

[NEWS CLIP: Before he vanished he sent a text to his mother saying, "I am sorry if I'm an embarrassment."]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: And basically texted his mom and said it was like, "I think it's concussions that are making me do this."

[NEWS CLIP: "These concussions have my head all effed up."]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: And at the same time ...

[NEWS CLIP: It is an American pastime ...]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: There seems to be no limit to the popularity of the sport.

[NEWS CLIP: Sunday's game was the most-watched event in American television history.]

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: I think it's very plausible that the Super Bowl this year will be the most watched sporting event of all time.

JAD: In America, that is.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: And this is a ...

ROBERT: Don't you feel a small cold wind in the air? Like, strange ...

JAD: I feel like—I feel like the chimes of death are tolling or something.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Absolutely. Well, this—and there's really never been a serious discussion about should we as a culture be playing football since ...

JAD: Since Roosevelt. 1905.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Yes. And yet no one seems to be stopping themselves from watching these games. So it's almost like there are these two silos ...

JAD: Two separate streams in our collective unconscious.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: ... that exist simultaneously and are both, like, shooting skyward.

JAD: Okay, so we got to be honest. Like, when Chuck was talking about the—his whole idea of silos shooting skyward, cool idea, but we weren't really sure what that meant exactly.

SOREN WHEELER: Hi. It's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for letting me come down.

MONET BARTELL: Of course.

JAD: That is until our producer Soren Wheeler met this woman.

MONET BARTELL: I'm Monet Bartell.

SOREN: You could add something, like, if you want.

MONET BARTELL: I'm Monet Bartell. I'm a Libra. I enjoy long walks on the beach. I'm just joking.

SOREN: So Monet is a partner at a media production company. She lives with her husband and their four kids outside of Atlanta, Georgia. But I actually went to talk to her about her son Parker, because Monet says the very moment he was born ...

SOREN: So what are you thinking when—when Parker's born?

MONET BARTELL: As soon as the doctor saw his third thumb, I was like, "Yes! We're going to the NFL, baby! Yes!" And then Parker's 10 pounds and one ounce. He's the biggest thing. He walked out the womb.

SOREN: I'm still going with third thumb.

MONET BARTELL: The third thumb! That's the best part.

SOREN: I hadn't heard that one before. All right.

MONET BARTELL: So Parker comes out, and he's the biggest thing I've ever seen. You know, I've prepared for months and I've found the perfect outfit to take him home from the hospital, and—and this joker's too big for it. So right then I'm like, "Oh my God. Yes!"

SOREN: Yes, like ...

MONET BARTELL: He's a boy!

SOREN: And he's gonna play in the NFL.

MONET BARTELL: And he's gonna play in the NFL. A lot of families pass down quilts. They pass down family businesses. Our family tradition was football. It was football. My dad played football.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: The Lions' leading rusher was Mel Farr.]

SOREN: Her dad is Mel Farr. He was a running back for the Detroit Lions, and actually Rookie of the Year in 1967.

MONET BARTELL: His brother played football.

SOREN: Miller Farr.

SOREN: Your uncle.

MONET BARTELL: My uncle.

SOREN: Her brothers Mel Farr Jr. and Michael Farr both played football.

MONET BARTELL: My cousin Jerry LeVias who they ...

SOREN: And when we say 'played,' these guys, everybody played in the NFL?

MONET BARTELL: They all played in the NFL.

SOREN: Okay.

MONET BARTELL: Jerry Ball. I can't even—if I—I said I was gonna actually write them all down, but it's something like 33 ...

SOREN: Really!

MONET BARTELL: ... family members have played in the NFL.

SOREN: Oh, my God!

MONET BARTELL: Coming from a sports family, we had to play a sport. So I can remember getting up in the mornings before school, six, seven o'clock in the morning and having agility drills. We lived in a house with ...

SOREN: Like, just at home in your backyard?

MONET BARTELL: At home. Yeah, in the backyard. We lived on a hill. And I didn't have it as bad as my brothers because I played tennis. I started playing tennis at three. But, like, in the wintertime, my dad would strap my brothers to a sled, and my dad would sit in the sled and they would have to run up the hill with my dad in the sled.

SOREN: Oh, my God!

MONET BARTELL: Tire drills, everything.

SOREN: Do you have a sense of, like, why?

MONET BARTELL: I think for my dad, sports opened up so many doors for him. My dad's from Beaumont, Texas. He was in Texas at a very—you know, during segregation. So sports allowed him to get out. It allowed him to provide an excellent lifestyle for his family. And being drafted to the Detroit Lions and being a football player in the Motown era, weekends at my house consisted of Marvin Gaye and Lem Barney and Charlie Sanders who are all in the Hall of Fame now. My father actually—and Lem Barney—sang background on Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On?"

SOREN: No!

MONET BARTELL: Yes, they did. My dad has a gold record.

SOREN: Oh, man! That's crazy!

MONET BARTELL: And when he stopped playing football ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP: The continuing adventures of Mel Farr, Superstar!]

MONET BARTELL: He opened up his first car dealership.

SOREN: And then another and another. And for a time, the Mel Farr Auto Group was actually the largest African American-owned business in the country.

MONET BARTELL: I mean, that's what football did for him. Football gave my dad a life.

SOREN: So Parker ...

MONET BARTELL: If they had a toddler league, he'd have been in it.

SOREN: So you started looking for leagues?

MONET BARTELL: Absolutely. We moved to Georgia when Parker was two, and I found one that started at four. And I'm like, "Ooh, just two more years." It was like a countdown. "Oh my gosh, one more year." And when Parker turned four? I mean, I couldn't sleep the night before. I'm like, "Yes! Tomorrow's the day!" Parker has no idea what's going on. I go up there bright and early, first person in line. "Here's my check." Four years old. Full-on contact football at four.

SOREN: With helmets, pads.

MONET BARTELL: Helmets, pads, spring training.

SOREN: Wow.

MONET BARTELL: Parker had spring training, okay? He's going through the tires. He's four, okay? We don't even have team colors yet, but I'm there in what I feel like the team colors should be. I'm there in Honolulu blue and silver, because that's Detroit Lions colors. So this is just at the—at spring training. Then we get to the actual team practice. They immediately—they named him "The Tank." He was just plowing through people. They're like, "Tank! Tank!"

SOREN: Like the coaches and the parents?

MONET BARTELL: The coaches. At first practice, I'm not thinking about the other parents and their little normal-size children and the fact that by, you know, after the first day of practice three kids quit because Parker had just plowed them over. I'm like, "Yes, my son is a beast!"

SOREN: And then the season starts.

MONET BARTELL: Football in where we live is huge. At four years old, they were tailgating.

SOREN: [laughs]

MONET BARTELL: No, I'm serious. The coaches had matching outfits. They had headgear. I'm like, "Are you kidding me? You guys are talking on microphones?" And I'm like, "Wow, this is—this is freaking serious." And the coaches are cursing like, "You guys are playing like a bunch of [bleep]!" I'm like, "Whoa, they're four. They don't even know what that is."

SOREN: Wow.

MONET BARTELL: It's that serious.

SOREN: Are you starting to think this is ridiculous at any point? Or it's just they were ...

MONET BARTELL: I'm like, this—no, I'm like, this is ridiculous.

SOREN: Monet says she knew that, but when Parker's team would take the field ...

MONET BARTELL: "Ha ha, hoo hoo, go fight win!"

SOREN: ... it didn't matter.

MONET BARTELL: You know, the proudest moment as a parent, my son gets a personal foul.

SOREN: [laughs]

MONET BARTELL: I know. It's terrible. I'm—my son just tackles this guy, and the coach, you know, he would always tell them, "Make them eat dirt!" So after he tackled him, my son took his hand and was like, "Eat dirt!" And I'm like, "Ah, ha ha!" I had to keep myself down.

SOREN: Because the kid who's eat—mom who ate dirt is ...

MONET BARTELL: Right? I'm like, "Oh, I'm sorry!" So at that—that's what—that evening is when I realize, oh my gosh, if my son was just attacked by a 65-pound four-year-old, I'd probably be a bit upset. So this is a progression. This is—okay, they got the matching outfits. Okay, they eat dirt. And then you go home and you reflect on the day. And I start to—you know, I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. What about this kid's mom?" But then we get to the Super Bowl. So I'm a fanatic again.

SOREN: The Super—the four or five-year-old Super Bowl?

MONET BARTELL: Yes.

SOREN: Okay.

MONET BARTELL: My son has a trophy that's—it's probably three feet tall.

SOREN: The crazy part is that as all this is happening, as Parker's taking the field with his four and five-year-old teammates ...

MONET BARTELL: A family member had really, really started showing signs.

SOREN: Signs of, like ...

MONET BARTELL: Of CTE.

SOREN: Chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

SOREN: Which is the—what comes from, like, concussion?

MONET BARTELL: Concussion after concussion.

SOREN: Symptoms include memory loss, sometimes bouts of anger. In this case ...

MONET BARTELL: It was depression. It was suicidal thoughts. It was everything.

SOREN: Was it other family members saying, "Hey, have you noticed this?" Or was it he himself saying, "I've—I don't feel right."

MONET BARTELL: It was everybody else seeing it. It was getting phone calls. Like, "Hey, I need you to come get him because he's having dangerous thoughts."

SOREN: Yeah.

MONET BARTELL: And at that very time, knowing that, I went and signed my son up for football.

SOREN: What's going on there?

MONET BARTELL: Because that's what we do. It's almost like a split personality. Registering him for football was just as natural as getting up every morning and brushing my teeth. Then you have the other half as a mother, daughter, niece of NFL athletes who sees what happens on the flipside.

SOREN: And while Parker was playing, the part of her that did see what happens on the flipside, that—that part would campaign to raise awareness of CTE with other parents.

MONET BARTELL: I was on a mission. I met with people, I was doing health fairs, helping create this pamphlet that would go out.

SOREN: Meanwhile ...

MONET BARTELL: Since Parker was playing, my dad now is affected.

SOREN: Really? Your dad too?

MONET BARTELL: My dad is now showing signs.

SOREN: How old is he now?

MONET BARTELL: My dad just turned 70. And, you know, I'm seeing it now with his speech, with his thought pattern. You know, running backs what do you do, man? You lead with the head. That was, you know—but I can't stop myself from wanting my son to play football. It's just the—I can't—I can't even explain it. If he wanted to play I would be out there. He would be at practice, you know? Even—who tosses the ball around with him in the yard, hoping that he'll fall in love with football? Me.

SOREN: And as for Parker?

MONET BARTELL: When I asked Parker how did he like the season, his favorite things were the trophy and the pizza party at the end. He had no desire. "You want to play again next season?" "No." This past year or last year, "Hey Parker. Do you want to play this year?" "No. I want to play soccer."

SOREN: Would you bring up—like, when would a next possible season be?

MONET BARTELL: Well, registration is in June.

SOREN: And this would be what kind of—he's eight?

MONET BARTELL: Yeah. I don't want him to—if he decides to play the game, cool. If not, begrudgingly, but that's okay, too. I don't want to force him to play, especially this early. So I—I stand firm on both sides of the debate.

SOREN: [laughs] You can't do that.

MONET BARTELL: [laughs] I know! That's what makes it ridiculous. I stand firm that children should not play football. I also stand firm that children should play football. That it's a great sport.

SOREN: And her current solution to this quandary ...

MONET BARTELL: He can be a kicker. So now we're out there where I'm—this year, we're dedicated to teach him how to kick. Maybe soccer's not such a bad idea.

SOREN: Yeah. Good practice for the—all the kickers came from soccer.

MONET BARTELL: I'm like what—what the what? There's no Black kickers, there's no Black punters.

SOREN: Even the kicker gets hit every so often, though.

MONET BARTELL: Every so often, but there is a stiff penalty for that. They lose 15 yards.

SOREN: And about this point in the conversation ...

MONET BARTELL: Hey handsome. I forgot to unlock it. How was your day?

SOREN: ... Parker came home from school.

MONET BARTELL: Come say hi to Mr. Wheeler.

PARKER BARTELL: Hi, Mr. Wheeler.

SOREN: Hey there, Parker. How are you doing?

PARKER BARTELL: Good.

SOREN: I'm not exactly sure how an eight-year-old should look, but he's a pretty big kid.

MONET BARTELL: Come sit with me. Oof!

PARKER BARTELL: [laughs]

MONET BARTELL: I need to sit on your lap.

SOREN: So do you know why I came to talk to you today?

PARKER BARTELL: Um, why?

MONET BARTELL: Why?

SOREN: You don't know why?

PARKER BARTELL: Oh, about football?

SOREN: Yeah.

PARKER BARTELL: I've played—I played for about six weeks, I think. Is that right?

MONET BARTELL: Something like that.

SOREN: Because you just weren't really that into it?

PARKER BARTELL: No, I just still—the only reason I don't want to play it anymore is because I made someone swallow dirt and, like, that stuff is kind of messing up my history and I don't want to get anyone else hurt.

SOREN: Messing up your history?

PARKER BARTELL: Yeah. It's just messing up history in my life.

SOREN: Oh. I mean, you could—well, I don't know what that means. What does that mean? It's messing up ...

PARKER BARTELL: It's, like, messing up—it's making me have bad memories. I want to have good memories. And I kind of made someone swallow dirt. And I feel guilty. It was an accident. I just tackled him and then it happened.

SOREN: Did you feel bad about it right away or you just feel bad about it now when you think back on it?

PARKER BARTELL: I feel bad about it every time I think back.

SOREN: Really?

PARKER BARTELL: Yes. I thought I heard somebody crying or something. I thought I heard tears, or I saw them.

SOREN: So you didn't like doing that?

PARKER BARTELL: Yeah.

SOREN: Do you like watching football?

PARKER BARTELL: No, I'm not that into football like the rest of my family.

SOREN: Why not?

PARKER BARTELL: I usually think about just having fun and not winning.

SOREN: Where'd you get that? Is that from your mom?

PARKER BARTELL: No, I just know that. Winning's just for people trying to be better than everyone and bullying.

MONET BARTELL: Winning is for winners.

PARKER BARTELL: No. Like, mom, that's what I mean. It's trying to have fun, not just to be rude to people. When you win, all you're gonna do is, like, take a trophy and say you're better than them. It's not fair to the others.

SOREN: Do you like other sports? Or you don't really care about that either?

PARKER BARTELL: I really want to do synchronized swimming.

MONET BARTELL: [laughs]

SOREN: Really? Is that true?

MONET BARTELL: Where did you come from? Is that true?

PARKER BARTELL: Mm-hmm.

SOREN: Why?

PARKER BARTELL: Mostly because when I saw something about it, it looked kind of cool. Like, people were doing a lot of cool swimming tricks. So I kind of thought it was something for me.

SOREN: Are you—are you playing me?

PARKER BARTELL: It's true! I want to do synchronized swimming.

MONET BARTELL: When did that happen?

SOREN: You're like—you're like, this guy's gonna come talk to me about football and I'm gonna tell him that I want to do synchronized swimming.

MONET BARTELL: Right!

SOREN: No, you like it?

PARKER BARTELL: Yeah, it sounds kind of good.

MONET BARTELL: He likes to swim. So he said swimming. But I guess we don't have to worry about ...

SOREN: Well, that would be a team sport.

PARKER BARTELL: Yeah.

SOREN: So ...

PARKER BARTELL: Wow, this is kind of exhausting.

SOREN: Yeah. It's all right, we can stop. We can stop.

JAD: Thanks to Monet and Parker Bartell for letting—letting Soren invade their home and exhaust them on short notice. And by the way, when Monet went back and counted all the relatives that had been in the NFL, it wasn't 33 it was 13. But that's still—that's a lot. In any case, here's a logical question that we felt like we should ask at least somewhere in this show. Given Tank's experience, you know, where football was practically his birthright, but he is opting out, are there a lot of Tanks out there? Like, is football the sport tanking nationally? Generally? We asked Molly Webster to find out.

MOLLY WEBSTER: It's funny. One of—one of my friends, we call him Tank, but that's because he can drink a lot.

JAD: [laughs]

MOLLY: And my dad can't remember his name. He just goes, "How's Tank? How's that Tank fellow?" Still drinking a lot. In any case, I started making some calls to high school coaches.

MOLLY: Hey, can you hear me?

MOLLY: Winning teams, losing teams.

RYAN WALLERSON: Yup.

MOLLY: Oh, sweet.

MOLLY: And to kind of get a handle on the bigger picture, I called this guy.

RYAN WALLERSON: Ryan Marsalis Wallerson. And I am a freelance sports reporter. I don't know, would you want to name the places where I ...

MOLLY: No. We'll keep it short.

RYAN WALLERSON: Okay, so then yeah. Just the name and "freelance sportswriter."

MOLLY: Okay. So in 2013, he was an intern at the Wall Street Journal's sports desk.

RYAN WALLERSON: In my first week, an article was published on ESPN that suggested based on solely Pop Warner's youth football numbers ...

JAD: Hey!

MOLLY: By the way, Pop Warner is no longer the person Pop Warner, but he is a youth football league.

RYAN WALLERSON: Based on solely Pop Warner's youth football numbers, youth football was declining pretty significantly.

MOLLY: Oh, do you remember what the—what the drop was?

RYAN WALLERSON: Yes. Around five percent a year between 2010 and 2012.

MOLLY: When people saw these numbers they were like, "Oh, my God!"

JAD: Why, exactly? Five percent doesn't sound too bad.

MOLLY: Well I mean, if you assume that the five percent drop doesn't change, that's what it drops by every year, then in 15 years you're in the neighborhood of, like, 50 percent less kids playing ball.

JAD: Wow!

RYAN WALLERSON: Well, if this is true, it spells the end of football.

MOLLY: The idea is you—if you don't have the kids getting trained in, like, Pop Warner, then they're not going to middle school football. They're not going to high school football and they're not going to college football. So they're not going to the NFL.

RYAN WALLERSON: Right.

MOLLY: Needless to say, everyone was like, "Oh, my God. Is this actually true? Or is there more to these numbers than meets the eye?" So Ryan starts digging into them.

RYAN WALLERSON: See if I couldn't find a context to put them in.

MOLLY: And he doesn't look just at Pop Warner numbers, he looks at all the youth football leagues.

RYAN WALLERSON: And what I began to realize was that the drop wasn't as drastic, but that there was indeed a drop.

JAD: But it's not as big as everyone was saying.

RYAN WALLERSON: Right.

JAD: Okay.

MOLLY: Your relief will be short-lived, because—because there's a bigger story. When Ryan looked at participation across all youth sports, not just football ...

RYAN WALLERSON: I came back with noted drops in all of the biggest youth sports.

JAD: It's not just that football's—everything's decreasing?

RYAN WALLERSON: So nothing was rising except for lacrosse and for hockey.

JAD: Huh. Wow.

RYAN WALLERSON: So we had our headline: "Kids Aren't Playing Sports." You know, football gets all of the attention, football gets all of the controversy. You don't really hear about basketball or soccer or baseball. So you don't have any reason to think that those sports aren't still as healthy as they've always been. But then when you go and look, you see a drop that is comparable to the drop in the sport that's got everybody's hair on fire. And you just wonder why this has been going on so silently.

JAD: Is this an extension of the whole concussion thing?

MOLLY: Yes. Concussions were definitely part of the conversation. But so were, you know, budget issues, and kids specializing in sports and getting burnt out. Basically, everyone had their reasons and every school has their reasons, but the guys I talked to ...

J.T. CURTIS: And, you know ...

MOLLY: ... they just kept coming back to land on this point that had nothing to do with safety.

J.T. CURTIS: You know, the bottom line is today, if a kid doesn't like the score he just hits restart. He just starts the game over.

J.J. WOODWARD: Because they can get on a video game, they can play. They start losing, they hit reset.

J.T. CURTIS: Hit the button and play another game.

GEORGE SALLAS: They just hit a button and start over.

MOLLY: That's J.T. Curtis, J.J. Woodward and George Sallas. They're in Louisiana, California and Kansas. And I heard this refrain not just from them, but I heard this in Ohio, I heard this in Michigan. And by this point I was like, Jesus!

J.T. CURTIS: You know, that's the problem.

MOLLY: It's funny, because it's as if all the coaches all across the nation are reading the same book or going to the same bar or something, because literally everyone I've talked to has brought this up.

MOLLY: Is it just that everyone's said it to each other so much that ...

J.J. WOODWARD: No. I can tell you that's not it at all.

MOLLY: Okay.

J.J. WOODWARD: It's because we all deal with the problem.

MOLLY: So all these coaches I talked to were like, "You can't go hit reset. You can't hit reset. You can't hit reset." Like, these kids are used to, like—I sound so old. They're basically saying that what they find is they feel like there's some—some commitment issue now.

ROBERT: I only play if I win. I only want to win.

MOLLY: Yeah. So the interesting thing was is the coaches I talked to at the powerhouse schools were like, "Well, we're not actually having trouble getting kids because we win." But the other schools in their conference, they know that coaches and athletic directors, and then I talked to some schools that had forfeiting teams, that ended up forfeiting games. They said like, "You just don't get the kids that will work their asses off and ride the bench."

ROBERT: Well, everybody wants to win. It just somehow sounds like they expect to win or it isn't worth the effort? That's what you're saying?

MOLLY: Or it's just that there are so many options, like, why would you choose the losing option?

GEORGE SALLAS: I tell you what, when I used to go home after school, I'd turn the TV on and there's three channels. That's all I had. And they usually were showing soap operas. And so there was really no reason, I had no reason to stay home. Now you go home, there's 150 stations. You can find something you want to watch or you get out a game.

JAD: All right. So whether you think it's video games, or parenting, or fear of concussions, or whatever reason you want to choose, it seems to be the largest thing that happens in these conversations about sports like football, is it doesn't actually seem to be about football. It's like some kind of negotiation between the generations. Because, like, back in the 1870s, the Harvard kids, they were using football as a way to say back to the previous generation like, "Look how tough we are. Look how manly we are." Maybe this generation is turning away from sports like football also to say something back to the previous generation, something about the world they want to live in.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Sports do suggest things about society and about reality that we are slowly trying to move, remove from existence.

JAD: Mm-hmm.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: The idea that somehow physicality matters more than the mind, and that people really aren't equal. And that if you yell at someone and challenge their manhood, that's awful.

JAD: I mean, overt masculinity of any kind, it's not something that we're in the mood to celebrate these days. So it could be, if you believe writer Chuck Klosterman, and it could be that some kids are choosing away from sports like football because to play football, it means that on some level you have to support or at least entertain ideas that you don't like, you know? Or at least you don't want to admit that you like. Except he admits it.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: You think there's something unconscious about me that is drawn to the problems in the game that are based around what it really is, which is a ...

JAD: Two dudes slamming into each other.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Yes. Because you know, I mean, okay, this is—like, I'm doing—I guess I'm doing pop psychology on myself, but ...

JAD: Which you are fully entitled to do because it's fascinating.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: But I sometimes wonder if—if somehow part of me misses that from my life. That—you know, that my life is built around sitting at a computer and avoiding conflict and basically thinking about things and going on the radio and talking about what they might mean, you know? And sort of like, what are they metaphors for? What is this culture? What is it telling us, you know? And that—that perhaps football allows me to sort of—even though I'm not playing it, I'm just watching it, but somehow by watching it, it allows me to tap into something that is no longer part of my life because my mind has trained me not to want it. My mind knows not to look for conflict.

CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Now I—do I suspect that I was socialized to believe that that would be a positive, exciting thing? Absolutely. I mean, I—you know, I talked about sports with my father more than we talked about every other thing we ever talked about. I had a great relationship with my dad. He passed away. I loved him. We had a great relationship. But we definitely spent more time discussing sports than I would say every other thing that we discussed. Even though he would always say, like, the most important thing—he'd like—I'd come home from whatever, you know, and he would be like, "So how was school today?" And I would tell him how school was briefly and he would be like, "Well, you know, academics are the most important thing." And then we would talk about football practice for an hour. Like, you know? It's like, that would be—so I realize that my relationship to football goes back to, you know, my—I have two older brothers, man. We spent so much time throwing the football around. And—and my brother, one of them—both my brothers were very good football players and, like, one played at the college level. And as a first grader I was so proud of that, you know? I would tell—you know? And so there's all of these things that are—I'm sure are creating obstacles for me seeing this clearly. And maybe the kind of person who sort of like, "This guy is crazy. That he's not seeing the obvious thing, that he is actually saying that we need to somehow find a moral justification for a game that's probably killing dudes for money?" I don't know. That's not my fault. That's how I feel. I can't get around it, man. I'm sorry.

JAD: Wow! There you go.

[ANSWERING MACHINE: You have two new messages. Message one.]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Hi, this is Chuck Klosterman.]

[MONET BARTELL: This is Monet and Parker Bartell.]

[CARA CURTIS: Hi, this is Cara Curtis calling. I have a bit of a cold, so here I go.]

[PARKER BARTELL: Radiolab is produced by Jad Ab—Abam ... ]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Abumrad. Our staff includes Ellen Horne, Soren Wheeler ...]

[CARA CURTIS: Tim Howard, Brenna Farrell ...]

[PARKER BARTELL: Molly Webster, Malissa O'Donnell, Dylan Keefe, Jamie York ...]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Lynn Levy—Lynn Levy ...]

[CARA CURTIS: Andy Mills, Kelsey Padgett ...]

[PARKER BARTELL: And Matt Kielty. With help from Arianne Wack, Jill Lerner, Damanio ...]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Damiano ...]

[CARA CURTIS: Marchetti.]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Latif Nasser, Kelly Prime and Danny Lewis. Radiolab involves many staff members with names that are hard to pronounce.]

[PARKER BARTELL: Also thanks to Richard Schiff.]

[MONET BARTELL: Tom Benji, Robert Wheeler ...]

[CARA CURTIS: Jeff Miller, Fritz and Debra Creedy ...]

[CHUCK KLOSTERMAN: Fred Wardecker, Joe Flood, Eric Anderson ...]

[PARKER BARTELL: And the Cumberland County Historical Society. Bye.]

[ANSWERING MACHINE: End of message.]

JAD: Okay, we're back. One last thing, one last thing. Okay, if you grew up on Inside The NFL as I did, this is for you. It's The Voice!

SCOTT GRAHAM: Using the Chicago players crowded along the sideline as a shield, Exendine circled the bench and started running again. Behind the line of scrimmage, Hauser launched the ball 40 yards downfield. Exendine darted back onto the field all alone near the Chicago goal. For a moment, it was a frozen scene in a staged drama. The ball hung in the air, a tantalizing possibility. Could Exendine reach it? Would he catch it or drop it? Defenders wheeled and stared downfield. Spectators watching from the stands found that the breath had died in their collective throats. The spiraling ball seemed to defy physics. What made it stay up? When would it come down?

SCOTT GRAHAM: In that long moment, 27,000 spectators mashed together on benches and crammed on platforms, may have felt their loyalty to the home team evaporate in the grip of a powerful new emotion. They may have noticed something they never had before: that a ball traveling through space traces a profoundly elegant path. They may have realized something else. That it was beautiful. The ball struck its human target. Exendine caught the pass all alone and trotted over the Chicago goal line.

SCOTT GRAHAM: The stadium exploded in sound and motion. On the Chicago sideline, coaches and players screamed with outrage. On the field, the referee signaled the score. But in the stands, the spectators marveled. The crowd held its breath in amazement for a time, then stifled its local pride and turned loose its enthusiasm and cheered for the Indians, the Chicago Daily Tribune reported. It was the game breaker. The rest was just anti-climax. The final score was 18 to 4 for Carlisle. The long pass had arrived in Chicago, although by a circuitous and out-of-bounds route. The Indians, declared The Tribune, had given such an exhibition of its possibilities as will not soon be forgotten in that vast throng.

[00:35:00.13]

JAD: That was Mr. Scott Graham, voice of Inside The NFL. Thank you, Scott. You are the awesomest voice ever. And that was original music by Dylan Keefe. Bye!

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