LULU MILLER: Hey, it's Lulu. This is Radiolab. We have a story with feelings today. We've got an emotional one, a good one, a great one from the archives that explores the line between humans and chimps and then blurs it right out. It's sort of a trio of stories, and it actually starts with a tiny little story I did when I was a baby producer. You will hear my voice at the tippy top. It involves a researcher who was working with the great Jane Goodall and did something she wasn't supposed to do and kept it a secret for a long time, but finally spills it on the air. So anyway, without further ado, here comes the episode, which is called Lucy, from our archives, kicking it off to Jad and Robert.

[RADIOLAB INTRO]

JAD ABUMRAD: All right.

ROBERT KRULWICH: Let's start with an encounter.

JAD: Yes.

LULU: Hello?

BARBARA SMUTS: Hello?

LULU: Okay, can you hear me?

BARBARA SMUTS: I can barely hear you.

JAD: Okay, so this is—well, our producer, Lulu Miller, was calling around trying to find some stories for this hour.

LULU: Let's see.

JAD: And she ended up on the phone with a woman named Barbara Smuts.

LULU: Is that any better?

BARBARA SMUTS: Yeah.

ROBERT: Barb Smuts is now at the University of Michigan, but years ago, she was a field researcher in Tanzania, working with the great Jane Goodall.

JAD: You know, following chimps at a distance, and writing down everything they do and that kind of thing.

ROBERT: Right.

BARBARA SMUTS: Okay.

ROBERT: And when she was in Tanzania, she ran into, in Gombe National Park, a particularly young male chimp named Goblin.

LULU: Will you tell me the story of Goblin?

BARBARA SMUTS: Oh, sure!

LULU: First of all, what does he look like?

BARBARA SMUTS: Well, he's an adolescent male.

LULU: Mm-hmm.

BARBARA SMUTS: If he stood up, he would come up to quite a bit above my waist.

LULU: Yeah.

BARBARA SMUTS: And almost immediately he started picking on me in the sense that he would walk past me and just kind of jab me casually as he went by. And sometimes he would punch me with the fist, sometimes he would just kind of whack me with an open hand or just kind of use his body to just kind of shove at me as he went past. You know, he'd look at me as he approached and I'd be going, "Oh no!" [laughs]

LULU: And is that something they would often do with humans? Or was this ...

BARBARA SMUTS: No.

LULU: ... rare?

BARBARA SMUTS: No. He was in a phase of life when a male—as a male matures, he rises in rank, and before he challenges any other adult male, he rises kind of step by step through the female hierarchy.

LULU: Huh.

BARBARA SMUTS: He basically intimidates female after female until they give in and acknowledge that he's superior, and then he'll pretty much leave them alone. So he was at the point where he dominated all but probably two of the adult females.

LULU: And you.

BARBARA SMUTS: And me. So that's part of it is where Goblin was. And the other part of it is that I'm really small.

LULU: So as you're out there doing your research, what do you think is going on? Did you think he just ...

BARBARA SMUTS: Well, I just felt like he was a bully and I was an easy target.

LULU: Yeah.

BARBARA SMUTS: And in the evening, I would say to Jane Goodall, you know, I would tell her what happened, ask her what to do, and she would say, "Just ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored and he'll stop doing it." Which was, you know, this kind of standard advice, this sort of myth of total scientific objectivity. Just ignore it and it'll go away. [laughs]

LULU: Yeah.

BARBARA SMUTS: But instead, he escalated. I remember one time I was sitting at the top of a hill, and he came up behind me and jumped on my back, which forced me to roll down the hill. And he kind of rolled down with me. You know, we were like this ball rolling down a hill. Again, I would tell Jane and ask her what to do, and she would always say the same thing, "Ignore it." But one day during the rain, it was the rainy season, so we all carried raincoats with us. And when it wasn't raining, we would carry them on our backs so that it wasn't in the way. And Goblin walked up to me one day and yanked on my raincoat. And these raincoats, they were like our most valuable possession, the raincoat. So he grabbed it, and he was gonna run away with it. And so we had this tug of war. And so the two of us were standing, facing each other, you know, tugging on this raincoat. And then I did something that was not premeditated at all.

LULU: Mm-hmm?

BARBARA SMUTS: I just leaned forward and I punched him as hard as I could in the face.

LULU: Oh, my God!

BARBARA SMUTS: [laughs] And ...

LULU: What did you think, like, right after you'd done it? Were you shocked at yourself that you just ...

BARBARA SMUTS: Yeah. I'd never punched anybody before, you know, much less these—a chimp who I was supposed to be studying from a distance. So I was shaking.

LULU: What did he do?

BARBARA SMUTS: He just collapsed. He, like, turned into a little baby, you know? He collapsed on the ground and started whimpering. And then he looked to Figgin, who was the alpha male at the time, who was sitting nearby, and he was like Figgin's little sidekick, always kind of hanging out with Figgin and playing up to him. He ran over to Figgin screaming like "This being just beat up on me. Come on, let's get her!" And fortunately, Figgin did not take it seriously. I remember he just reached over with this, you know, great big hand, and without even looking at Goblin, he patted him on the head a few times and then went back to whatever he was doing. Because it could have been really bad if he had taken it seriously. I did not go back and tell Jane Goodall I had punched Goblin in the nose. And I just—I didn't tell the story for a long time.

LULU: Why not?

BARBARA SMUTS: Well, I think, you know, I would have gotten a lot of disapproval.

LULU: Yeah.

BARBARA SMUTS: Anyway, Goblin never bothered me again.

ROBERT: Huh.

JAD: So here's the reason we played that story, because here you've got this moment where you've got a scientist, Barbara Smuts, who's, you know, a trained scientist, got scientific rules of objectivity and all that. And ...

ROBERT: [laughs] She totally loses it.

JAD: Yeah, she slips. And for just that moment, she's not really a human, he's not really a chimp. The raincoat is the only important thing.

ROBERT: The borders have dropped is really what's happened.

JAD: Yeah. Now we're used to thinking of borders, you know, between us and the animals, as being fixed. And most people would say this is good. Keep them there, keep us here, keep us separate.

ROBERT: But not in this hour. We're gonna meet people who decided to go the other way. People who are trying to live intimately—and I mean really intimately—with big, wild animals.

JAD: Something you could either call incredibly stupid or our last great hope.

ROBERT: Because there are so many of us on the planet.

JAD: So coming up, we've got two stories of radical experiments in sharing. I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab. Okay, story one.

CHARLES SIEBERT: [laughs]

JAD: This whole show, in a way, began with a conversation with this fellow, Charles Siebert.

CHARLES SIEBERT: I am an author and a journalist, and ...

JAD: And he wrote a book called The Wauchula Woods Accord—which is a great book—in which he tells a story, which he told us in the studio as well, about a chimpanzee named Lucy.

JAD: So let's just start at the beginning. Who is Lucy?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Lucy is a chimpanzee that actually—this was found out later—born to a circus entertainer, born in their camp.

JAD: What country are we in?

CHARLES SIEBERT: In the US. They traveled up and down the East Coast, the May-Knoll Chimp Ark Show, something like that. They were very popular in the '40s and '50s. They were wildly popular, apparently.

ROBERT: Oh, so this was a mom and pop entertainment operation that would go from town to town in the middle Atlantic states.

CHARLES SIEBERT: Exactly.

JAD: And so Lucy was born to two of the chimps that performed in this thing?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah. And they used to do things like they used to stage wrestling matches with human beings. The he-man of the town would come in and challenge the chimp to a wrestling match.

JAD: Really? What would happen?

CHARLES SIEBERT: You know, a chimpanzee, an adult chimpanzee is about five times the strength of a human. And this guy would walk in thinking, you know, I'm gonna give this chimp a run for his money. And, like, one swipe of this chimp's forearm, and the guy would be carried out.

JAD: [laughs]

CHARLES SIEBERT: It would end so quick.

ROBERT: And then the house band would go [singing], "He's out of there!"

JAD: Okay, so getting back to our story about Lucy. This is a story that begins in 1964, and it's one that Charles would have never heard about had he not bumped into this obscure old memoir.

CHARLES SIEBERT: Long out of print.

JAD: Yeah. What's the name of the book? Do you actually have it with you?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah, hold on. It's called Lucy: Growing Up Human: a Chimpanzee Daughter in a Psychotherapist's Family by Maurice K. Temerlin.

JAD: Maurice K. Temerlin, he is the psychotherapist.

CHARLES SIEBERT: He's a psychotherapist.

JAD: And he's also the dad in this story. And his wife Jane, who's a social worker, she's the mom. Now the thing to know was that, especially for Maurice Temerlin, this was more than just adopting a baby chimp. This was an experiment.

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah.

JAD: He wanted to know, given the right upbringing, how human could Lucy become?

CHARLES SIEBERT: You know, what he says early on in this book, "Would she learn to love us, and perhaps have other human emotions as well?"

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Would she be well behaved? Rebellious, intelligent, or stupid? What about sex?]

JAD: Maurice Temerlin actually died in 1989, but these are his words, read by radio host David Garland.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Would she mother her offspring? Could she learn to talk? How intelligent might she be?]

JAD: And so how did they get her?

CHARLES SIEBERT: He says that he and his wife Jane made all the arrangements, went and got the chimp.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: From the day the infant was born ...]

CHARLES SIEBERT: The mother was anesthetized.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: In the early morning of her second day, Jane fed the mother a Coca Cola which had been spiked with phencyclidine, a drug which puts chimpanzees into a deep, pleasant sleep.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: And the baby was taken away.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Jane named her Lucy, and brought her home on a commercial airline, carried in a bassinet, her face covered with a lacy blanket. We were blissfully unaware of the complexities we were creating on the day Lucy came home.]

ROBERT: So the baby was a day or two old?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Just two days old.

ROBERT: So wasn't weaned.

CHARLES SIEBERT: No. And that was part of the experiment.

ROBERT: They bottle feed her?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: She quickly learned to hold her own bottle. At two months, her eyes would focus. At three months, she was trying to climb out of her crib to go to people. And at six months, she was pretty mobile on all four limbs.]

JAD: Memoir goes on. By the time she was about a year old ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: She was eating at the table with us.]

JAD: Forks, spoons, knives.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: She would see us using silverware and immediately do so herself.]

JAD: She began to dress herself in skirts.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: She would often grab my hand, pull me to my feet, and beg me to chase her, always looking back to see that Daddy was not too far behind.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: You know, he really went at this with this sort of full bore earnestness. You know, when he calls her his darling daughter ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: I took great pride in my daughter's achievements.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: ... he does feel like a real parent to Lucy.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: She was so responsive to being looked at, held and stroked.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: But he's also, make no mistake, treating this as a very intense, cutting edge experiment.

JAD: The next phase of the experiment, which occupies a good deal of the book, involves one of those talents that we thought used to only be limited to us—language.

ROGER FOUTS: Okay.

JAD: Can you introduce yourself, please?

ROGER FOUTS: Okay. My name is Roger Fouts. I'm a professor of psychology, and have worked with chimpanzees since 1967.

JAD: Roger Fouts was called in by Maurice Temerlin to address one of the crucial questions of the experiment.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Could she learn to talk?]

ROGER FOUTS: Right.

JAD: And at the time, he was the guy. He'd just been part of a team that had proven for the first time that chimps could use sign language to communicate. So his job with Lucy was to teach her how to sign.

ROGER FOUTS: And I think I came into her life when she was—as I remember it was 1970. I think it was four or five. She was four or five years old.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Roger taught her signs for 'airplane,' baby doll.']

ROGER FOUTS: 'Ball.'

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Banana,' 'barrette.']

ROGER FOUTS: Right.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Berry.']

ROGER FOUTS: Yeah. Yeah, so I was sort of like ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Blanket.']

ROGER FOUTS: ... the tutor/friend/babysitter that would come over for a few hours ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Bow tie.']

ROGER FOUTS: ... each day. And spend some time, you know, just playing with Lucy.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Candy.']

ROGER FOUTS: I would work on signs.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Can't.']

ROGER FOUTS: We'd read books together, or we'd go for walks. And I would chat with her, basically.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Cry,' 'dirty.']

JAD: And he says that Lucy ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: 'Enough.']

ROGER FOUTS: Just sort of picked it up.

JAD: ... picked it all up.

ROGER FOUTS: It was like a game.

CHARLES SIEBERT: She learned some 250 signs. And the big question is okay, so is it mere mimicry, or are they able to spontaneously create words and put them together in a new, original way? And there's been a lot of anecdotal evidence that, in fact, Lucy did spontaneously create words.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: In a later session, when shown a piece of watermelon, Lucy tasted it ...]

ROGER FOUTS: And she called it 'candy drink.'

JAD: Huh!

ROGER FOUTS: And a radish had gotten quite old, and one day, you know, she was calling it 'food,' and 'food' for, I think, several days of the study. And then she decided to eat this old radish, and she took a bite and spit it out. I said, "Well, what is that?" She called it 'cry hurt food.'

ROBERT: Wow!

ROGER FOUTS: She would also lie to me.

JAD: Really?

ROGER FOUTS: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

JAD: And lying, we should also say, is another one of those things that people used to think only we do.

ROGER FOUTS: During one of my sessions, I came in and she had a potty accident. And that she had been potty trained, but sometimes she didn't always make it to—and I was upset because I was now faced with having to clean it up.

JAD: [laughs]

ROGER FOUTS: And so I said, "Whose is that?" And she said, "Sue."

JAD: Who's Sue?

ROGER FOUTS: Sue was one of—one of my students that would come in and spend time with Lucy, too. I said, "No, Sue's not here." And finally ...

JAD: She blamed it on Sue?

ROGER FOUTS: Yeah. Said "Lucy," and "Sorry." And so ...

JAD: Sue?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Yes.

JAD: This is Sue.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Sue Savage-Rumbaugh.

JAD: The grad student of yours, who says she didn't actually see that lie take place.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Yes. Well, I wasn't there.

JAD: But she told us that when she met Lucy, she was blown away by—well, the incongruity of it all. Like, for instance, every time she would walk in the house, Lucy would just ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Walk casually into the kitchen and search through the cupboard for the kind of tea she wanted that day, and put some water in a kettle and put it on the stove and make us tea.

ROGER FOUTS: Yeah. It became a routine. I'd come in, and she would start the tea.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: It was the casualness with which she did it, the kind of air about it that, "Yes, I'm making tea, and I would like you to have some too, because tea is what we do." And so the thing to do was to sit down and to casually sip the tea with Lucy and casually look through the magazines, listen to the radio. And ...

JAD: What magazines would she look at?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Well, she looked at, I think, House and Garden, and some magazines that had pictures of women and children in them, whatever the Temerlins had out.

JAD: Wow!

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Lucy had developed an awareness of our emotions. If Jane is distressed ...]

JAD: Temerlin's wife.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: ... Lucy notices it immediately, and attempts to comfort her by putting her arm about her, grooming her or kissing her. If Jane is sick, Lucy would exhibit tender protectiveness toward her, bringing her food, sharing her own food.]

JAD: And as we get to this next part—this is sort of the midpoint of the memoir—it's useful to sort of remember a basic fact of biology. Speciation happens when you've got one group of creatures that gets divided into two, and then these two groups evolve away from one another. And eventually they get so far away from each other that they can't have babies.

ROBERT: And nature makes sure that they can't have babies by making one species basically undesirable to the other. You look across—you're a baboon, you look across at a chimp and you go, "Meh."

JAD: Yeah, you're only sexually attracted to your own kind. That is essentially what a species is. Now this isn't something you're supposed to be able to learn or unlearn.

ROBERT: This is just the way it is.

JAD: Yeah. Which brings us to some troubling passages in the book, beginning really on page 105.

JAD: Can you read it?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah.

JAD: And we should warn that this next minute and a half contains a sexual reference.

CHARLES SIEBERT: "One afternoon around five o'clock, Jane and I were sitting in the living room when we observed this sequence of behavior."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Lucy left the living room and went to the kitchen, opened a cabinet and took from it a glass, opened a different cabinet and brought out a bottle of gin.]

JAD: Gin?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah, yeah. She loved gin and tonics.

JAD: That's actually not the important part. It's what happens next. She takes her gin, goes back to the living room, sits on the couch. And there's really no other way to say this. She starts to masturbate. But even that's not the important part. It's actually in the very next moment that a boundary that took approximately six million years to establish dissolves. Mr. Temerlin sees Lucy doing this and he thinks, "Hmm. This? This is a perfect experimental moment." So he runs off to the mall ...

CHARLES SIEBERT: Buys a copy of Playgirl magazine and brings it back to her.

ROBERT: This is full of naked guys.

CHARLES SIEBERT: Yeah. And Lucy would masturbate to these centerfolds.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: I was not a part of that. I was never there when Lucy looked at the porno.

JAD: But Sue says that she was there for what happened next.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Yes. I was there when she was introduced to her first adult male chimpanzee.

JAD: Had Lucy ever seen another chimpanzee before?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Never seen another chimpanzee from the moment of birth.

JAD: Wow!

JAD: She says they brought this male chimp in ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: To see if Lucy was attracted to chimpanzee males.

JAD: And was she?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: I—well, the male chimpanzee would sit there with his hand held out toward her, and she was very frightened. And she tried to move away.

JAD: It was then, says Sue, that she realized that in every way that mattered, Lucy was no longer a chimp. She was stranded.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Right in between this great divide that I knew was there between humans and non humans. And I did not know how to negotiate this. There is no category in our language except a mythical one for something that's not human and not animal.

JAD: Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT: And I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab. Today we're listening to a story about Lucy.

ROBERT: The confused chimp.

JAD: Confused chimp.

ROBERT: This is the chimp that's raised as a human.

JAD: Who dressed like a human.

ROBERT: Talks like a human.

JAD: Even ...

ROBERT: Well, a little bit, anyway.

JAD: ... sexually attracted to humans.

ROBERT: So the thing to understand before we go on in this story, says Charles Siebert, is you can do this, and you can do it heartily, and you can get one confused chimp. But at some point, nature reasserts itself, at least in this way. As a chimpanzee grows, it becomes ...

JAD: Very strong.

ROBERT: Very strong.

JAD: And that, says Charles, is usually the point where the human owner throws in the towel. CHARLES SIEBERT: And, you know, there are people who really—who can't have children, who have chimps as their substitute children. And they all have to go through that moment where the chimp gets too big, too strong, too willful, too sexually mature, and they invariably relinquish the chimp.

JAD: But in Lucy's case, what happened?

CHARLES SIEBERT: So in Lucy's case, the Temerlins really hung on way longer than most. Lucy was 10 going on 11. They had, by this time, rigged up an entire portion of the house for this very strong, willful animal, you know, behind bars, padded rooms so you can bounce ...

ROBERT: Behind bars? Bars—they built a cage inside the house?

CHARLES SIEBERT: In their house.

JAD: Which defeats the entire purpose of the whole thing.

CHARLES SIEBERT: That's right. That's right.

ROBERT: Was she destroying things?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Oh God, she was tearing the house to shreds.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Lucy was into everything. She could take a normal living room and turn it into pure chaos in less than five minutes.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: And with company, she would just jump on a guest and start bouncing up and down.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, voiceover: Our friends and relatives began to visit us less frequently. Now that she's grown and is five to seven times stronger than I am, she could tear us apart, literally.]

CHARLES SIEBERT: It was more and more challenging and time consuming and upsetting, to the extent that he and his wife finally said, "All right, we can't do this anymore. This is too much."

JAD: Experiment over. The memoir ends with a big, fat question: what will happen to Lucy? On the final page, Maurice Temerlin says, "Well, we know we can't keep her, but we don't—we don't know what to do. The end."

CHARLES SIEBERT: I was raised in the romantic tradition, and I like books to have happy endings. If they don't have happy endings, they should have tragic endings. I hate books which have no ending, like this one.

JANIS CARTER: Hi.

JAD: Hi. Is this Janis?

JANIS CARTER: Yes, it is.

JAD: This is Janis Carter. Not only does she know the ending of the story, she's actually the key player in it.

JANIS CARTER: Yeah. I hope we have a decent conversation, because the lines here are really terrible.

JAD: Took us a really long time to find Janis Carter. She lives in a remote part of Gambia in Western Africa, and that'll become relevant in a second.

ROBERT: How did you meet Lucy?

JANIS CARTER: I met her—one of my part time jobs that I had to put myself through grad school was to clean Lucy's cage. That's how I met her. I was—I cleaned up after her.

ROBERT: [laughs]

JAD: In fact, Janis says she was one of the few people who could actually handle Lucy when she was out of her cage.

JANIS CARTER: Which surprised the Temerlins because she had been quite difficult to previous caretakers.

ROBERT: Was that because you were stronger than the predecessor caretakers, or you were cleverer? Or ...

JANIS CARTER: Well, I think it was probably more timing. I think that the time that I entered Lucy's space, she was looking for something outside of that sphere of mom and dad, and I was a friend.

JAD: In any case, Janis ended up being in Lucy's life at the exact moment when the Temerlins finally decided what they were gonna do with Lucy.

JANIS CARTER: They visited a number of ...

JAD: It's 1977. They had just spent a year traveling around the world looking at different options—zoos, research labs, chimp retirement homes, which were these facilities that were springing up to house chimps like Lucy, who had been raised by humans or were in the circus. But every place they visited, she says, was just too depressing for them, too cage-like for this being that they essentially considered their daughter. And so the decision they came to was that the best way to honor Lucy, the best way to really make her happy, was to simply let her go in the wild. And they asked Janis to help them do it.

JAD: Did you have any idea or any experience of what you were getting yourself into?

JANIS CARTER: Zero. I didn't—I didn't have a clue.

JAD: So after a 22-hour flight, Janis, the Temerlins and Lucy arrive in Dakar, Senegal.

JANIS CARTER: I remember arriving really early in the morning, and how hot it was, even early in the morning.

JAD: Compared to Oklahoma, this was just different.

JANIS CARTER: Lots of insects, mosquitoes, and high, high, high humidity. It was the rainy season.

JAD: After they landed, she says, they piled into a car ...

JANIS CARTER: And crossed the Gambia River.

JAD: And they made their way to a nature reserve.

JANIS CARTER: The nature reserve.

JAD: Which was basically just a bunch of big cages ...

JANIS CARTER: Really large enclosure there.

JAD: ... sitting right outside in the jungle. So they get there, coax Lucy into one of these cages, say their goodbyes for the night, and they leave her to spend her very first night alone outdoors. After a few weeks, Maurice and Jane Temerlin decided to leave. And the plan was that Janis, for just a little while, would stay behind, you know, to help Lucy with the transition.

JANIS CARTER: She started to lose her hair and get skin infections. And no, I wasn't happy being there either. I hated it.

JAD: How long did you think you would be staying there?

JANIS CARTER: Three weeks.

JAD: Three weeks? Wow!

JAD: It's worth saying that Janis Carter has actually never left.

JANIS CARTER: At the end of those three weeks, there was just no—no way that I could leave Lucy.

JAD: The weeks turned into months and then into a year, and still Lucy's stressed out. She's not eating. Her hair is falling out.

JANIS CARTER: It was just way, way ...

JAD: And by this point, a whole 'nother group of chimps shows up at this nature reserve. These are former captives like Lucy, and they start to deteriorate as well. So Janis decides what she needs to do is change locations, so she takes Lucy and all these other chimps to this abandoned island that she'd found.

JANIS CARTER: A long, narrow island.

JAD: This is in the Gambia River.

JANIS CARTER: A mile wide at its widest point. Very thick, green forest.

ROBERT: And the idea here was that you would release them, and they would be able to do whatever in the island, and learn how to climb trees and learn how to forage and learn how to establish relationships with each other. Was that the notion?

JANIS CARTER: Yeah, in a nutshell.

ROBERT: [laughs]

JANIS CARTER: And you would think that if you gave them freedom, they would just jump for joy. And that's—that's the last chapter of the book.

JAD: But it's not what happened. She says that when Lucy and the other chimps got to the island and she let them loose, they clung to her. During the day, she'd walk them around the island and point out to them, "Here are the fruits you should be eating, and these are the leaves you should be eating." But they weren't interested in any of that stuff.

JANIS CARTER: Oh, no.

JAD: They were actually more interested in her stuff, which is what they were used to.

JANIS CARTER: I had human objects and tools that I needed for my own survival, and they wanted to use them. Like, when I would cook or brush my teeth or take a bath or anything that I wanted to do, they wanted to be doing it with me.

JAD: Janis figured the only way this was gonna work is if she could somehow keep the chimps away from her and her tools. And so here's where she does something really radical. She had run into a couple of British army officers who were passing through the Gambia on some kind of wilderness training thing, and she somehow convinced them to build her a cage, a giant metal industrial cage, then to fly it over to her island ...

JANIS CARTER: In a helicopter.

JAD: ... and drop it—thunk!—right in the center. And the thing about this cage is that it wasn't for the chimps. It was for her.

JANIS CARTER: Yes.

ROBERT: You lived in a cage?

JANIS CARTER: I lived in a cage, yes.

ROBERT: Wow!

JAD: And in the beginning, she says, her cage didn't even have a roof.

JANIS CARTER: No. In the rainy season, it rained on me.

JAD: The only thing above her head was this fine wire mesh to keep the chimps out.

JANIS CARTER: And then the chimps all wanted to be inside with me. When I said no, then they would climb on top of the cage and sleep out in the open, on the wire on top, right above me. Every time there was any sound in the night of a hyena or anything, they would immediately squeal and defecate and urinate right on top of me.

JAD: Oh, God!

ROBERT: Really?

JANIS CARTER: Then I put corrugates on the roof, but then they started dancing on the corrugates. They really liked the sound that it made. So they were, all day long, busy dancing.

ROBERT: [laughs]

JANIS CARTER: It sounds funny, and it was at times, but it distracted them from being chimps.

JAD: After about a year, says Janis, most of the chimps lost interest in her. You know, because they couldn't get her tools, she was stuck in a cage. They gave up. They stopped hanging around her, and they'd just wander off into the forest and forage for themselves.

JANIS CARTER: But Lucy would stay behind. She, for obvious reasons, thought that she was different than all the rest of the chimps.

JAD: And so Janis and Lucy entered into a kind of sign language battle of wills.

JANIS CARTER: If I came out of the tent to look to see if they were all gone, there she was right there, looking really forlorn at me, and using sign language to tell me to come out, to be with her.

JAD: But Janis would sign to Lucy, "No, Lucy. Go."

JANIS CARTER: Go.

JAD: Lucy would then sign back, "No. Janis come."

JANIS CARTER: "No, Lucy. Go."

JAD: "No. Janis come."

JANIS CARTER: "Lucy. Go."

JAD: And this went on and on.

JANIS CARTER: I tried and I tried and I tried and I tried.

JAD: But Lucy wouldn't move. She would just stand there waiting for Janis to help her.

JANIS CARTER: Sometimes I would stay inside the tent all day long. And I would try to ignore her, ignore that she was there thinking that if I ignored her, then she'd go off with the others. But that didn't work. And if I did look at her, then she would sign that she was hurt. She would use the sign for hurt.

JAD: Meanwhile, she wasn't foraging for herself. She was getting thinner.

JANIS CARTER: And I tried everything, and really, really knocked myself out trying to do things for her. And I just started to think maybe she never was gonna do it. And we would argue about it. I ate everything. I was eating ants, I was eating sticky latex from figs. I was doing everything that I was finding really nauseating to do, just so that she would watch me do it and think, "Wow, if she's doing it, then I'm gonna do it, too." And she wouldn't do it. She'd just turn her head away. And I honestly thought at one point that she would rather starve to death than have to work for her food. I was losing hope.

JAD: But incredibly, Janis kept at this for years. She'd have to toss Lucy some food, some of hers, just to keep Lucy from starving, but she kept at it. And then one evening, after a really, really long day ...

JANIS CARTER: Oh, what a drag of a day.

JAD: ... Janis and Lucy are walking through the forest, and they both stop because they're so beat and crash.

JANIS CARTER: And we just—we fell asleep.

JAD: On the ground together.

JANIS CARTER: When I woke up, Lucy was actually holding my hand. And she had a leaf.

ROBERT: She's holding out a leaf?

JANIS CARTER: Yes. She reached out and she offered it to me, and then I offered it to her and she ate it. It was a miracle. It was an absolute miracle.

JAD: And after that, says Janis ...

JANIS CARTER: Things turned.

CHARLES SIEBERT: And actually, from that moment on, Lucy did start to make the effort and go off.

JAD: And be a chimp.

CHARLES SIEBERT: And be a chimp.

JAD: That's Charles Siebert again.

CHARLES SIEBERT: And it was not too long after that that Janis went away and ...

JAD: Left the island?

CHARLES SIEBERT: Mm-hmm.

JAD: Janis says she'd, you know, periodically circle in a boat just to keep an eye on Lucy. But she says she never, not once, set foot on that island. At least not for a year. And then one day, she decided to go back.

JANIS CARTER: This day is the first day that I went actually on the island.

JAD: She pulled her boat up to the tip of the island where there was this little clearance, and she parked. And as she did, Lucy and the other chimps who'd heard the boat came out of the forest and into the clearing, and Lucy and her walked toward each other.

JANIS CARTER: And I took with me some of Lucy's possessions that had been important to her, like her mirror. And she used to like to draw and books, just to see how she responded to it.

JAD: And what did she do?

JANIS CARTER: Well, she was—she looked at the things. She looked at the book, she looked at herself in the mirror, and she signed to herself in the mirror. Then all of a sudden, she grabbed me. I mean, really grabbed me. One arm circled all the way around me. And she sort of held me really, really tight. It just really made me breathless, and I started crying. She started to give these soft little pants, and I feel pretty certain what she was saying to me was, "It's okay. You know, it's all okay now."

JAD: At that moment, somebody in Janis's boat snapped a picture of her and Lucy hugging. It's a picture that Charles Siebert printed in his book, and it's one of those images that when you see it, I don't know why, it just haunts you. Lucy has her head against Janis's chest, and Janis has her arms around Lucy.

CHARLES SIEBERT: It's one of the more fraught moments. You have to just look at the picture. I mean, it sort of made me want to write the book, something about the complexity and the invertedness of that picture.

JANIS CARTER: After that, the other chimps had started to go, and she wanted to go with them. And she got up, and she—she didn't turn back to look at me. She just kept walking. She wanted to go with the other chimps and she did.

JAD: A year later, Janis went back to visit Lucy again, but when she got there this time, Lucy was gone.

JANIS CARTER: And I went to all the different places looking to see if we could find anything. And we did. We found her—the body.

JAD: She was lying right near the place where Janis's cage had been. Just a skeleton.

JANIS CARTER: Her skull and her hands and her feet were separated from the rest of the skeleton.

ROBERT: So how'd you know that that was her body?

JANIS CARTER: She had a split between her front teeth, and she was very long. And there was nobody else missing.

JAD: Hmm.

JAD: And maybe the saddest, strangest thing was that ...

JANIS CARTER: We didn't find any signs of her skin or hair.

JAD: It appeared that Lucy had been skinned.

CHARLES SIEBERT: And no one knows actually what happened, but because the hands were taken, which poachers do, they thought—one of the conjectures, which makes it really unbelievably tragic is that they think that Lucy, always the first to approach humans, just sort of guilelessly approached poachers, not knowing that they were that, and that they just took advantage of their unwitting and overeager prey. But that's—that was Lucy's end.

JANIS CARTER: The scenario that I have developed to cope with her death is that a fisherman or someone who—some local person that just happened to pull up next to the land and was going to take a break or put a raffia palm down or do something, and because she always felt confident around humans, she probably approached the person. Perhaps when she surprised the person, and just on reflexive defense, she was probably shot. I've got no other explanation.

JAD: Janis Carter still lives in Gambia, where she now works, not just with the chimps, but with the local population to protect the habitat for the chimps. And Charles Siebert's latest book, which is a really tremendous book, is The Wauchula Woods Accord. Our sincere thanks to him for turning us on to the Lucy story. Also, if you go to our website, Radiolab.org, you can see pictures of Lucy and Janis, and also that particular picture that I describe of the hug. It's—it's just one of those pictures you really just have to see. It's at Radiolab.org.

ROBERT: Three, a two, a one.

JAD: Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT: Wow, that was a big, heavy ...

JAD: Sorry, I was feeling it. I was feeling it.

ROBERT: [laughs] I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: This is Radiolab. We shouldn't be laughing because we've been listening to a really, really sad story about a chimp named Lucy, who ...

ROBERT: Who was born as a chimp, raised as a human, and died in—well, under—because she ran into a human that she trusted and probably shouldn't have.

JAD: Yeah. And so the question that we want to ask now—and we asked this question to Charles Siebert, you know, a guy who wrote a lot about chimps—is what's the lesson that we should draw from this?

CHARLES SIEBERT: It's a good question. I think what it says, it points back to something I said earlier, that the only option now, and the best way to dignify and honor, like, what they are—who they are, they're more than what—is to fence them—ourselves off from them, in little pockets of their home that we leave alone. That would be coexistence.

ROBERT: Or if you can't do it that way—and there's a very good reason why you couldn't do it that way, because there are what, six now 6.8 billion people in the world, soon to go up to nine billion.

JAD: Too many of us.

ROBERT: Too many of us.

JAD: So what do you do?

ROBERT: Well, one thing you might try—I mean, it's a kind of a far out notion, but you could go back to the Lucy experiment, the one we just described.

JAD: It ended very badly.

ROBERT: Yeah. But this time you do it—how shall I put this? You do it differently.

SOREN WHEELER: Test, test, test.

JAD: There's a place in Iowa where this is kind of happening. Kind of. We sent our producer, Soren Wheeler, to check it out.

SOREN: Getting ready to go visit Sue Savage-Rumbaugh.

JAD: So to set things up, what was the name of this place?

SOREN: The Great Ape Trust, although I think the name is kind of in flux. But anyway, the Great Ape Trust, which is this place in Des Moines, Iowa, where—it's kind of like a compound where they keep a very special group of bonobos.

JAD: Is it BOnobos or boNObos? How do they say it?

SOREN: I think they say boNObos.

JAD: Hmm.

BILL FIELDS: Hey, the microphone started working again.

SOREN: So when I got there, Bill Fields, who is the director of the place ...

BILL FIELDS: Director of scientific research.

SOREN: That's him right there.

BILL FIELDS: In bonobo studies.

SOREN: Bill took me inside, and then there's this place where they keep the bonobos. But Bill had to kind of go in there ahead of me.

BILL FIELDS: Without his authority.

SOREN: And ask ...

BILL FIELDS: Kanzi?

SOREN: ... if they are ready to see me.

BILL FIELDS: Do you want the visitor to come see you?

[Kanzi screeching]

BILL FIELDS: That's Kanzi. [laughs] Okay. All right, we're gonna—we're gonna bring the visitor to see you.

SOREN: And I walk into this room, which is this kind of big concrete room.

BILL FIELDS: Here comes Kanzi. He'll be coming right through here.

SOREN: The rules are, when there are visitors, that the bonobos are kind of kept behind this fence.

JAD: Oh, there's a fence in the room?

SOREN: Yeah. And just on the other side of the fence is Kanzi.

[Kanzi screeching]

JAD: Whoa! What does he look like? Is he big?

SOREN: He's pretty big. Maybe if he stood completely upright, he'd be a little bit shorter than I am, but he's built. And more than that, he's just got this kind of presence. I mean, he looks at you, like, directly in the eye. He was standing there with his arms just kind of swinging.

SOREN: His fingers are amazing.

BILL FIELDS: Oh, they're so soft and sweet.

SOREN: It's not like going to a zoo.

SOREN: Yeah, they're long.

SOREN: It's a little bit more like there's another person on the other side of that wire. So here's one of the first things that Kanzi does when I come in. Like, there's these two—you know, like a big plastic salad bowl?

JAD: Mm-hmm.

SOREN: He would take these two big plastic salad bowls face down on the concrete, and put his hands on them and run them around the room. Around and around in a circle. And then he just slams himself up against the wire.

JAD: Wow! Why? What do you think he was doing?

SOREN: [laughs] I didn't know what to think.

BILL FIELDS: Can you say your name? Do you like him? You do. I like him, too. I like him. He likes you.

[Kanzi screeching]

BILL FIELDS: You see the microphone?

SOREN: So here's Kanzi's story. Sue—you remember Sue from the last story?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Sue Savage-Rumbaugh.

JAD: Oh, yeah!

SOREN: After she worked with Lucy—this is about 30 years ago, she got Kanzi. And she raised him. I mean, she ...

JAD: From a little bitty ...

SOREN: Bonobo.

JAD: Wow!

SOREN: She would, you know, carry Kanzi around with her all the time.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Loving him as much as I love my son.

SOREN: She becomes like ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: We'd watch movies when we went to bed at night.

SOREN: ... a mother to Kanzi. This sounds a little bit like the Lucy thing, but the difference here is that ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: With Kanzi, we never wanted to take him away from his mother, Matata.

SOREN: Kanzi also has a bonobo mother.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Matata was born in the Congo, so she carried the knowledge of the bonobo's culture as best she could across to Kanzi. I was a member of a different species. I had a different kind of language, a human kind of language.

SOREN: Sue says that the whole idea of the experiment was to create kind of an emotional bond between her and Kanzi that would fill Kanzi with an ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: An innate desire to understand what I was going to say, to understand how I felt, to want to communicate with me.

SOREN: And so pretty soon, Kanzi is using this—they have a kind of a special keyboard with these symbols. And you can touch the symbol, and it makes a computer voice as a word.

COMPUTER: Egg.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Good! Can you find 'milk?'

COMPUTER: Milk.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Good!

SOREN: He's using this symbol keyboard to communicate with Sue.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: How about 'Sue?'

COMPUTER: Sue.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Very good!

SOREN: This is the two of them sitting in front of the keyboard, practicing.

JAD: And how many words can he do?

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: How about 'chow?'

SOREN: Over 600.

JAD: Really?

SOREN: Yeah.

COMPUTER: Chow.

JAD: Wow!

SOREN: And then—this is where to me it just gets—Kanzi, as he got older, started being able to communicate without the keyboard. She would talk to him, and he would talk back.

JAD: What?

SOREN: I'll give you an example. When I was there, there was one point where we were outside. BILL FIELDS: We're here, Kanzi. Where are you?

SOREN: Like, Kanzi has this outside space. And we're outside too, but he's still fenced in like before. And Bill and Kanzi are having this kind of back and forth.

BILL FIELDS: What's out there? Do you see something?

SOREN: Kanzi seems to be saying, "There's something I want to show you, or there's something you need to see." It's not quite clear what's going on.

BILL FIELDS: I don't see it yet.

SOREN: And Bill can't quite figure it out either. So Kanzi takes us then, from the tool site over to this other place where there's—out in the yard, there's this big pit that we can't see into because we're behind this fence. But Kanzi is basically pointing down in the pit.

BILL FIELDS: There's something down in the hole.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: There's something down in the hole. We have to go in to look at that, Bill.

SOREN: And according to Bill and Sue, saying there's something there.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: There's water.

JAD: How is Kanzi saying this?

SOREN: I mean—well, I mean, to you and me, it would sound like [screeching].

JAD: [laughs]

SOREN: I mean, like, I—I could tell that Kanzi was gesturing at something.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: You got it. You got it. And here. And here.

SOREN: But ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Is it dangerous?

BILL FIELDS: What is it?

SOREN: ... Bill and Sue are hearing ...

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Does it live under the mud?

SOREN: ... words.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: Has it got teeth? It's got teeth. It's got big teeth.

BILL FIELDS: And you want us to get rid of it?

[Kenzi screeching]

BILL FIELDS: Are you scared of it?

[Kanzi screeching]

BILL FIELDS: Not too much. [laughs] You can handle it.

[Kanzi screeching]

BILL FIELDS: Well, I can't come in there right now, but I can in a little bit, and we'll check it out.

JAD: We were so interested in this situation that you're hearing right here ...

BILL FIELDS: It's too cold out here. I'll come and look. I'll come and look.

JAD: Like, what is—like, are they really talking? So we decided to call up Bill Fields.

JAD: Hello?

BILL FIELDS: Hello? Hello? Hello. This is Bill.

JAD: Hey, Bill. So we heard a bit of tape that Soren recorded where you guys were outside, and Kanzi was pointing in a hole or something. And it just sounded like you guys are having some kind of real bilingual exchange. I mean, is that really what was happening?

BILL FIELDS: Yes, that's what was happening. We have begun to be able to decode his speech. If you say, "Kanzi, what do you want for breakfast?" he'll point on the lexigram keyboard he wanted ...

COMPUTER: Grapes, onions, tofu.

BILL FIELDS: Say, "Okay, I'm gonna go tell everybody. We're gonna have grapes, onions, and tofu." And he will just respond with, "Right now."

JAD: Like, vocally?

BILL FIELDS: Yes.

JAD: What does that sound like?

BILL FIELDS: I'm gonna see if I can do it. [whispers] Right now.

ROBERT: So it's in English?

BILL FIELDS: Yes.

ROBERT: Oh, man!

BILL FIELDS: Yes. When he speaks to me, and I understand it, it's in English.

JAD: The first time it happened, says Bill, he was a grad student, and he and Kanzi were outside.

BILL FIELDS: I was sitting on a stump.

JAD: And Kanzi was sort of in a field nearby. But at a certain point, he says, Kanzi stopped what he was doing, turned right to Bill ...

BILL FIELDS: And I'll do my best to reproduce it for you. He said to me, "ch-ase." Like that.

JAD: He said what?

BILL FIELDS: He said, "chase." But it was very hard for him to say it.

JAD: But don't you just ask yourself, like, "Really? Am I sure that's what I heard?"

BILL FIELDS: Not anymore.

ROBERT: [laughs]

BILL FIELDS: I used to. It is such a common occurrence in our lab. And it's not just my experience, it's my staff's experience. It's Sue's experience.

JAD: And Soren, what about you? I mean, you were there. Do you buy what he's saying?

BILL FIELDS: Kanzi speaks words.

SOREN: I still don't know.

JAD: Yeah.

SOREN: I mean, the science isn't there, but what I do buy is that there's real communication going on. And I think it may be, like, a new kind of communication. Like, this is something I don't think has happened anywhere else. Bill and Sue have literally created a third culture, a culture that is neither just bonobo or just human. It's something in between. And I think that that culture and those relationships are real.

JAD: Yeah.

SOREN: Now the weird thing about that is that with all the—all the great things that come out of that, there are also moments of real confusion.

JAD: Like what?

BILL FIELDS: Well, one time we had a principal investigator who was visiting the lab at that time, and she was having a very strong disagreement with Dr. Savage-Rumbaugh about method. And this really upset Kanzi.

JAD: Why? Was the investigator screaming at Sue? Or what was she doing?

ROBERT: Why do you call him an investigator? Is that, like—is this some kind of—some kind of academic visitor? Is that what we mean?

BILL FIELDS: That's how scientists are referred to. You have the principal investigator, the co-investigator.

ROBERT: But it's not Columbo with a gun, packing a gun. This is, like, just some guy from some college somewhere.

BILL FIELDS: Yeah. It's a scientific investigator.

ROBERT: Okay.

JAD: So just to fill out the scene, you've got Sue, Bill and this investigator in one room. And Kanzi in a different room behind some glass.

BILL FIELDS: Very thick, clear glass.

JAD: So Kanzi can actually see what's happening in their room. You can see that this investigator is getting angry with Sue, his human mom. It's getting more and more animated.

BILL FIELDS: It was professionally aggressive and loud.

JAD: And what was the—what was the argument about, do you remember?

BILL FIELDS: Oh, yes. It was about the format that we were going to use for archived video.

JAD: That's it?

ROBERT: [laughs] Well, you know, wars have been fought over stupider things. [laughs]

JAD: And as Sue and this lady are arguing, what was Kanzi doing?

BILL FIELDS: He was banging on the window. So I went to speak to him.

JAD: He walked into Kanzi's room. Kanzi then went to the keyboard and told him, "You have to punish that investigator for screaming at Sue."

BILL FIELDS: He didn't want—he wanted me to go in there and stop her from doing this. It was my responsibility to take care of things, and that if I didn't do it, he was going to bite me.

JAD: Really?

ROBERT: So were you being told, "Man up! This woman is being attacked, and you're supposed to pound or bite that investigator. And if you don't bite her, I will bite you." Is that essentially ...

BILL FIELDS: Yes. And I defaulted to human culture. I said, "Kanzi, I really can't go argue. I can't interfere." I just defaulted to the way things would happen in the human world. And so later I told Sue that Kanzi told me he was gonna bite me. And Sue said, "Kanzi's not gonna bite you." And 24 hours later, after he threatened to bite me ...

JAD: He says that Sue was putting Kanzi back in his enclosure, but Kanzi pushed past her, ran down the hall, found Bill in his office ...

BILL FIELDS: He came and found me, and he bit me.

JAD: He bit you?

BILL FIELDS: Mm-hmm.

ROBERT: Where did he bite you?

BILL FIELDS: On the hand. It was really serious. I lost a finger.

ROBERT: [gasps]

JAD: Jeez!

BILL FIELDS: What happened was the hand was bitten, and they had to reattach all of the ligaments so that the rest of my hand would work.

JAD: Wow!

BILL FIELDS: I had three surgeries that week. The first one was 14 hours, the next one was about eight hours, and the third one was about three hours. But the problem was I apparently had sensitivities to drugs we didn't know about, and they had given me morphine, and I arrested.

JAD: God!

BILL FIELDS: It stopped my breathing and my heart.

JAD: You almost died?

BILL FIELDS: Yes.

JAD: Wow!

ROBERT: But do you think if you'd bit her, then he wouldn't have bitten you?

BILL FIELDS: I'm certain of it, yeah.

JAD: So what did you do then? I mean, did you just come back to the lab and pretend nothing happened, or ...

BILL FIELDS: I came back to the lab about 14 days after the event. I was not ready to, but I didn't know what else to do. But for eight months, I didn't speak to Kanzi. And he kept trying to make up with me.

JAD: How would he do that? Would he type in his keyboard, "Sorry?"

BILL FIELDS: He never—he would—he refused to tell me he was sorry. But he would keep calling me.

JAD: Bill says he'd use the keyboard to ask the other researchers to get Bill. "Get Bill!"

BILL FIELDS: And what he wanted me to do is just come down and renew my friendship with him and just act like nothing had happened. And I simply wouldn't go and see him. And Sue came to me, and tried to talk me into going to see him? And I said, "When Kanzi's ready to apologize." But she'd come back and say, "No, Kanzi's not gonna apologize. He doesn't think he should." And I just stood on my ground, you know, Kanzi's gonna apologize to me.

JAD: Finally, one afternoon eight months later, one of his colleagues came up to him and told him ...

BILL FIELDS: Kanzi wants to tell you he's sorry. And as soon as I got down there, he threw his body up against the wire, pressing up against me. And he just screamed and screamed in my mouth, which was this very submissive scream. It was very clear he was sorry, and he was trying to make up with me. And I asked him on the keyboard, "Are you sorry?" And he told me, "Yes."

ROBERT: And when you say he threw himself against the wire—you mean, against the separating device between you and him?

BILL FIELDS: Yes. He just pressed his body up against that wire. And so I put my body up against him, and we just pressed up against each other.

ROBERT: Do you see what's happening here? You're telling us a story which reads more and more and more like a soap opera between a community of beings. The fact that one of them is a little bonobo and the other one is a guy is almost incidental to the story. It's like, I could put this on channel five if I wanted.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: "All the Same" - Annie Moses Band]

BILL FIELDS: It's just primates.

SOREN: Currently, the Great Ape Trust is not just Kanzi. There's about seven different bonobos there, and a dozen or so kind of staff and researchers. And while they're certainly not the same, they have created, at the very least, some middle ground. And for Sue, that's not about a solution to any conservation problem or some scientific breakthrough. It's something deeper and more personal.

SUE SAVAGE-RUMBAUGH: When I am with bonobos, I feel like I have something that I shared with them long ago, but I forgot. As we've clothed ourselves and separated ourselves, we've gained a wonderful society, but we've lost a kind of soul-to-soul connection that they maintain. And it sometimes seems to me as though we're both a kind of a disadvantaged species. They have things that I've lost. I have things that they don't have. I feel like if I could have their abilities and keep mine, I would be whole.

JAD: You can find more information about anything that you heard in this hour at our website, Radiolab.org. We've also got Lucy pictures and Janis and Kanzi pictures there. And you can subscribe to our podcast. That's at Radiolab.org. I'm Jad Abumrad.

ROBERT: I'm Robert Krulwich.

JAD: Thanks for listening.

[LISTENER: Hi, I'm Rhianne and I'm from Donegal in Ireland. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad, and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes: Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Ekedi Fausther-Keeys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gebel, Maria Paz Gutiérrez, Sindhu Gnanasambandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neason, Sarah Qari, Valentina Powers, Sarah Sandbach, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.]

[LISTENER: Hi, I'm Erica in Yonkers. Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.]

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