Have you ever seen an island on a lake? On an island? On a lake? On another island? Josh Calder has. Working in a dusty room of a library, he first saw one on a map, and has been fascinated with these “recursive islands” ever since. Song bud Alan Goffinski takes us on a wild journey into these secret bullseyes hiding all over planet Earth. We learn from ecologist Elba Montes why recursive islands breed species found nowhere else on Earth, and thus are hotbeds of evolution.

Josh Calder is a futurist in Washington DC, providing foresight for organizations and governments. His background is in foreign policy, and he also keeps an eye on science fiction as "the futurist at the movies." Born on an island, he has visited them ever since, and has been to more than 600 till date. He’s particularly interested in prison islands in history, and of course, recursive islands on islands on islands. Check out Josh Calder’s website for more island information and trivia. 

Elba Montes, The Bullseye: Dr. Elba Montes is an environmentalist from Spain. She worked at the Ibiza Island Council for 11 years, where she led the pilot project to control the invasive snakes, and, at the same time, she studied them. Those studies culminated in her PhD cum laude on Biodiversity and evolutionary biology, with a Dissertation called "Natural History and impacts of an invasive snake, Hemorrhois hippocrepis, on Ibiza" The University of Valencia gave her the Award for outstanding PhD theses (2023-24). She stayed during her studies on Guam to learn about the brown tree snake invasion and management. She was a founding and board member of the Society for Island Biology, and she is currently a board member of the Spanish Herpetological Association. Her current job is the coordination of a project to improve the knowledge about the conservation status of amphibians and reptiles in Spain.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org

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Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC studios. This episode was reported, produced, and features original music composed by Alan Goffinski. Our team includes Alan, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers and Joe Plourde. Fact checking by Natalie Middleton. 

Special thanks this episode to kid advisors Lola and Evie Young, and to Julie Abodeely, Sarita Bhatt, Shannon Webb-Campbell, Jae Johnson, Jeremy Stern. And thanks to the musician Timbre for plucking her harp and singing along to this episode. 

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Support for Terrestrials also comes from the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, The Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.