[RADIOLAB INTRO]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: [singing] How would it end? I ain't got a friend. My only sin is in my skin. What did I do to be so Black and blue?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Ethel Waters: [singing] To be so Black and blue.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Child, this is why I've been feeling like I'm blue in the face for years. I'm just like, this period, basically between emancipation and the Harlem Renaissance, it is the key to our American character.

SHIMA OLIAEE: Could I get your name and your title just to begin?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: My name is Rhiannon Giddens. And I am a singer, player, composer and an armchair historian.

JAD ABUMRAD: Okay, quick intro. This is The Vanishing of Harry Pace, a miniseries on Radiolab. I'm Jad.

SHIMA: I'm Shima.

JAD: We begin this week by branching out from Harry. And we couldn't resist but bring you this short episode.

SHIMA: Yeah. So this one came about when we called up Rhiannon Giddens during our research.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: From when I found out about Black Swan, I was like, yes. This is what we were doing. We were doing all of it.

SHIMA: I wanted to ask her a whole bunch of questions about Ethel Waters because I knew she sometimes performed Ethel's songs. But then suddenly ...

RHIANNON GIDDENS: You know, what is Black? What is American?

SHIMA: ... we were on a bullet train, speeding through hundreds of years of American history.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Minstrelsy.

SHIMA: It started with that word.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Minstrelsy was such a big deal. It was, like, the first American cultural export. It was like rock 'n' roll before rock 'n' roll, right?

SHIMA: Minstrelsy is this phenomenon starting in about the 1830s. Went on for about a hundred years—you could even argue, longer than that—where you had white musicians dressing up in blackface and singing these disgusting racist songs using very exaggerated stereotypes of Black people. We touch on this a bit in episode one, but on this particular call, Rhiannon started telling us about the way this minstrel past has never really passed.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: There was an Australian prime minister in a minstrel troupe.

SHIMA: Oh my God!

RHIANNON GIDDENS: In this history. Like ...

SHIMA: No!

RHIANNON GIDDENS: ... literally there's a picture. It's online. I could show it to you.

SHIMA: This will connect us back to Ethel in just a second.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: So it's weird. You have, like, white people in blackface playing music that does actually have authentic African-American roots. But then Black people start to join minstrelsy because you're trying to get a job, honey. It is one of the few jobs that they have open to them. But to do it, they have to put on blackface.

JAD: Yeah.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: The very first moving picture done by the Lumiere brothers on British soil in London is of a blackface minstrel troupe outside entertaining. The other place that minstrelsy went other than Hollywood movies is cartoons, right? Even Mickey Mouse, the formation of him with the white gloves.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Bugs Bunny: Well, shut my mouth and call me corn pone.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Then you get to, like, Bugs Bunny and all of this.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Bugs Bunny: Please, don't beat me massa. Don't beat that tired old body.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Like, Bugs Bunny in blackface.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Bugs Bunny: No.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Multiple cartoons. You have to laugh because you'd cry otherwise. And then you have the coon song, where this imagery from minstrelsy is getting funneled.

SHIMA: The most popular song of the period ...

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "All Coons Look Alike To Me."

[ARCHIVE CLIP: [singing] All coons look alike to me.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I am so fascinated with this song because a lot of these songs are so catchy.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: [singing] Any other [bleep] never thought I'd be.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: But this song was so incendiary that you can whistle it at somebody, and you could start a fight.

JAD: Are there other songs you can point to where you're like, "Wow, this is a great song if I just listen to the music?"

RHIANNON GIDDENS: [sighs] All of them.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: [singing] Jimmy crack corn and I don't care.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: All the songs we learn in third grade or whatever, these songs were originally minstrel songs.

SHIMA: Which ones?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Oh, "Jimmy Crack Corn."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] Little brown jug, don't I love you?]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Little Brown Jug."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] The Camptown ladies sing this song - doodah, doodah.]

SHIMA: "Camptown Races."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] I've been working on the railroad ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "I've Been Working On The Railroad."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, child: [singing] Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, catch a tiger by the toe.]

SHIMA: "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Moe" ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, child: [singing] Eeny meeny, miny, moe.]

SHIMA: In the original, it wasn't a tiger they caught by the toe.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: They've been cleaned up.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] Dem bones, dem bones.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Dem Bones, Dem Bones." I mean, anything with 'dem' in it? Minstrelsy.

SHIMA: [laughs]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I remember being in choir singing "Jump Down, Turn Around, Pick A Bale Of Cotton." I remember.

SHIMA: Me, too!

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] Jump down, spin around, pick a bale of cotton.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, children: [singing] I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Everybody knows this song. "Oh, Susanna," that verse—oh, they took that one out. Oh, that's 'cause James Taylor sang that. Wait a minute.

SHIMA: [laughs]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah. "So I jumped aboard te telegraph and trabeled down the riber." It's not a minstrel song if it's not in dialect. "I jumped aboard te telegraph and trabeled down the riber." Riber—you know what that's going to rhyme with. "De electric fluid magnified and killed five hundred N-words."

JAD: Oh, dang!

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.

SHIMA: Wow!

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Oh, this is nothing. This is nothing, y'all. When I do a show, I get gasps when I talk about coon songs. Go, "All coons look alike to me." And they're like, "Oh, my heavens!" Pearls are clutched, you know?

JAD: [laughs]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: It takes a lot of thinking to figure out what to do with this music. But shoving it under the rug is not the answer.

JAD: Do you yourself perform any of these songs when you do your shows?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: The one that I do is "Underneath The Harlem Moon" and I do Ethel Waters' version of that song because I saw that film ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Sammy Davis Jr.] Am I going to be a great man, Mammy?]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Was it "Rastus For President?" "Rufus For President?"

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] President.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I can't remember. But it's with Sammy Davis Jr.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Sammy Davis Jr.] Me?]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] Sure!]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Who's like four—not four, but he was very, very young.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Sammy Davis Jr.] (singing) I'll be glad when you're dead, you, rascal you.]

SHIMA: In the movie, he gets elected president, becoming the first Black president—but as a kid.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: Come here, Prez. You got to say something to your constituen-say.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: You know, it's a dream. But it's white people's idea of what would happen if Black people took over the presidency.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [singing] From now on, pork chop will be free.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Sammy Davis Jr.] I do, I do ...]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: It will be his duty to plant the watermelon vine.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Talking about the watermelon amendment and [bleep] like that.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: It is too many loaded dice in this country.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Shooting craps. And it's just the most horrible collection of stereotypes ever assembled on one screen. I mean, it's just awful.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: Hey!]

SHIMA: At the end of the movie ...

RHIANNON GIDDENS: They're in the courtroom. And in strolls ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] Now sir, listen here.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: ... Ethel Waters in an evening gown.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] Office of the president.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Maybe a fur. I can't remember. It's been a while since I've seen it.

SHIMA: Ethel Waters plays the mother of Sammy Davis Jr.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] And I'm also around to ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: And she sings this song.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Creole babies walk along ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Underneath The Harlem Moon." And I was like, what the heck is this?

JAD: Huh!

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Rhythm in their feet, in their lips and in their eyes.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: It's so good! And then I looked it up.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Under the Harlem Moon: Creole babies walk along with rhythm in their thighs.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: And I was like, whoa, those aren't the words that she sang.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Under the Harlem Moon: Find love that satisfies, underneath the Harlem moon.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: And I was like, hmm, she rewrote half of that song.

SHIMA: How? What'd she do?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Like, look. These lyrics—all right, I found the original "Underneath The Harlem Moon." Let's see. "Creole babies walk along, rhythm in their thighs, rhythm in their hips and in their lips and in their eyes. Where do high browns find the kind of love this satisfies? Underneath the Harlem moon. They don't pick no cotton. Picking cotton is taboo. They don't live in cabins like the old folks used to do. Their cabin is a penthouse up on Lenox Avenue underneath that Harlem moon."

SHIMA: So that's how the original goes.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: She sings ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) We don't pick no cotton. Picking cotton is taboo.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "We don't pick no cotton; picking cotton is taboo. Right then there's a change. She is owning it. She's like, "Nah, y'all aren't going to talk about us. We're going to talk about ourselves."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Underneath our Harlem moon.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Underneath our Harlem moon." That is, like, the biggest change. It's not underneath the Harlem moon. It's underneath our Harlem moon. She's like, "Oh, no, no, no. I'm going to talk about my people now."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) We're never blue or ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Even—there's a line, "That's why we darkies were born." She changed to ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) That's why we schwartzes were born.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: ... "That's why we schwartzes were born."

SHIMA: [laughs]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: And if you know her relationship with that Yiddish song on vaudeville that was such a smash ...

SHIMA: It's a song that made Ethel famous in Vaudeville circuits called "Eli, Eli."

RHIANNON GIDDENS: You know, like, the idea of Blacks and Jews, all this—these are the things also that we don't talk about, the different cultural connections that were going on.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Ethel Waters: It was all a melting pot—Jewish people, Chinese, Italians, Polish people, Arabs. Nobody in our race is jet black. I'm a brown-skinned woman. We are many colors.]

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Underneath our Harlem moon.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I love her. Here's one of her verses. "We don't pick no cotton. Picking cotton is taboo. All we pick is numbers."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) And that includes you white folks, too.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "And that includes you white folks, too, 'cause if we hit, we pay our rent ..."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Then we pay our rent ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "On any avenue, underneath our Harlem moon." Right? Such a gravitas. Like, you can just hear it in her voice. Once we wore bandanas; now we wear Parisian hats.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Once we were barefoot.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Once we were barefoot."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Now we're sporting shoes and spats.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: "Now we're sporting shoes and spats."

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rufus Jones for President: [Ethel Waters] (singing) Once we were Republicans, but now we're Democrats.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: And now we're Democrats, which has a whole 'nother meaning.

SHIMA: My gosh.

JAD: Wow.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Right? It's that political shift that happened around that time. I mean, she owns every aspect of being a Black person. I get goosebumps every time I sing that song.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rhiannon Giddens: (singing) Creole babies walk along with rhythm in their thighs.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I do her version of "Underneath The Harlem Moon." And that is the moment I unleash.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rhiannon Giddens: (singing) Oh, now then we drink our gin, smoke our reefer when we're feeling low.]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I unleash my bitterness. [laughs] That's—like, that's the moment of me kind of just giving it to the world.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rhiannon Giddens: (singing) Don't stop for law or traffic ...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Just like, you know, I wish I didn't have to talk about this stuff, but I do. But you know what?

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rhiannon Giddens: (singing) Underneath the Harlem...]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Ethel gave me this vehicle to let loose.

[ARCHIVE CLIP, Rhiannon Giddens: (singing) ... moon.]

[applause]

RHIANNON GIDDENS: If you could rewrite all of them to be like that, that's what I would do.

JAD: This is The Vanishing Of Harry Pace. A miniseries on Radiolab. Who are you?

SHIMA: I'm Shima Oliaee.

JAD: And I am Jad. And this episode was a little bit of a shorty, but in just three days, we have a bigger one coming.

SHIMA: And it's a good one.

TIM BROOKS: His story is one of the most inspiring stories in lost sounds, I think, because, boy, he was one of those people that just knocked down the walls. This guy was like a battering ram.

TERRANCE MCKNIGHT: You know, when he went overseas, they were, you know, hide your daughter; you know, this Black man is coming. Close down the windows 'cause he's dangerous; somebody's gonna be pregnant before he leaves. All that kind of nonsense.

CHRISTOPHER BROOKS: When he walks out, he is booed and hissed.

ROBERT SIMS: He believed that it was like ...

[ARCHIVE CLIP: [singing]]

ROBERT SIMS: ... the epiphany of the Apostle Paul.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: [singing]]

ROBERT SIMS: What he accomplished was extraordinary.

SHIMA: This story is just bananas.

JAD: It's a story we did not expect to tell. But when we bumped into it, we were so surprised that we just had to include it. That is coming up in three days.

SHIMA: And before we leave you, we just want to say thank you to Throughline—Throughline podcast. We did a behind-the-scenes interview with them, and they've just posted it on their podcast feed if you search Throughline podcast. They're amazing. Thank you Ramtin and Rund.

JAD: Definitely.

SHIMA: Thank you for listening. We'll see you in a few days.

JAD: Bye.

-30-

 

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